Friday, December 15, 2017  |

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Dougie’s Friday mailbag (late 2017 letdown, mythical matchups, GGG’s P4P ranking)

One of the dream matches that hardcore fans hope becomes a reality in the near future is the lightweight showdown between three-division champs Jorge Linares and Mikey Garcia.
06
Oct

POST-SUMMER BUMMER!

Is it just me, or did the GGG-Canelo draw sap some of the excitement out of 2017? I looked forward to it for literally years, it was a decent scrap, then a suck-eggs draw.

Ortiz testing positive didn’t help either. WBSS is only available streaming for me. And honestly, Rigo-Loma doesn’t do much for me because I expect Loma to win and get no credit for beating an old, inactive guy that I don’t like.

I like Showtime’s card next week (well, 2/3 of it), as I enjoy watching Hurd, and Lubin and Charlo could be epic. Charlo seems to sit down on his punches more and is starting to bring the pain.

What is the next ‘big’ fight that you think will be signed? And I don’t count rematches that seemed planned from day one (ahem… GGG-Canelo). Joshua-Wilder, Linares-Garcia, Spence-Thurman, Inoue-Runvisai, Loma-Linares, Crawford-Thurman?

My chin is up. Still plenty of good stuff ahead, especially the semis of the WBSS. Just waiting on the next big thing (and not Michael Grant). Keep up the excellent work. – Donavan

Thanks Donavan. Waiting on the next “big thing,” eh? That’s OK, I guess, but do yourself a favor and try not to miss out on the many entertaining “little things” that will surely take place in boxing while you’re eagerly awaiting the big one.

So who’s got next? Hmmmmm…. Well, although he’s got the super-imposing look of a modern heavyweight world-beater just as Michael Grant did almost 20 years ago, I think Anthony Joshua has already proven that he’s a lot more than “looks” and I believe that the British heavyweight titleholder can be that “big thing” in boxing if he can make a statement with his imminent U.S. debut, which leads me to your question of the next “big” fight that will be signed…

I think if Joshua handles business against Kubrat Pulev and Wilder beats Bermane Stiverne again – and both defending titleholders should – there’s a very good chance that their anticipated showdown could take place sometime in 2018.

I also think there’s a solid shot of Linares-Garcia happening (Team Garcia visited the Golden Boy Promotions offices to discuss business two weeks ago) relatively soon. Linares wants to unify all the 135-pound belts and the good folks at Golden Boy want to match him up against Vasyl Lomachenko, so you can expect to THE RING/WBA lightweight champ to be in some significant fights in the near future. (The question in regard to showdowns with Garcia and Loma is whether Mikey will agree to some-kind of multi-bout deal with GBP and if the good folks at Top Rank want to deal with Oscar De La Hoya’s company.)

Thurman-Spence is a natural fight at 147 pounds, there’s no reason why Al Haymon wouldn’t be working hard to make this welterweight title unification bout, but as you know, things move rather slow with the PBC, and with Keith recovering from elbow surgery and Spence having not fought since the spring of this year, you have to figure that both beltholders are going to want tune-up bouts to kick-off 2018.

And sorry, bro, I don’t see Crawford getting a crack at Thurman (or Spence) any time soon. I hope I’m wrong about this.

Inoue-Sor Rungvisai is a given as long as the 115-pound standouts win their next bouts. But Sor Rungvisai has his work cut out for him with his WBC mandatory against Juan Estrada (do not overlook the young Mexican vet) and Inoue is still looking for a decent opponent for a New Year’s Eve return bout in Japan. I think there’s a very good chance that Inoue will take on the winner of Sor Rungvisai-Estrada in the second half of 2018, which brings me to your somewhat “bummer” outlook on the sport post-Canelo vs. GGG.

Lighten up! I know it sucks that the judges couldn’t get it right, and it’s only natural for there to be some emotional exhaustion or letdown after the biggest boxing event of the year takes place, but give the fighters credit for getting into the ring and giving us a competitive and memorable championship fight.

You don’t want to be excited about a Canelo-Golovkin rematch? Fine, be just excited for the middleweight division – which is also home to Daniel Jacobs, David Lemieux and Sergiy Derevyanchenko. And keep in mind that Jacobs just signed a deal with HBO and Matchroom Boxing. DJ’s comeback fight vs. Luis Arias isn’t a huge event but it’s an interesting TV bout that should lead to bigger and better middleweight matchups (as will Demetrius Andrade’s 160-pound debut in the co-feature to HBO’s Oct. 21 ‘Boxing After Dark’ show). HBO is clearly investing in this glamor division, as they are in the 115-pound weight class where the network is already planning a “SuperFly 2” card (which will help set up that Sor Rungvisai-Inoue showdown that you want to see).

Showtime has had a very solid 2017 and will probably continue to kick ass in 2018. If HBO can get back to their previous high standards, along with ESPN’s renewed interest and commitment to boxing, the sport will benefit going forward.

Is it just me, or did the GGG-Canelo draw sap some of the excitement out of 2017? Maybe, or maybe there have been so many big events and matchups between top fighters made this year that a lot of fans are burnt out or a bit desensitized going down the stretch of 2017. (And, as I’ve stated in previous mailbags, I think some hardcore fans – and I’m not pointing my finger at you, Donavan – are just pissed and jaded because Canelo didn’t get KTFO against GGG. Y’all can deny it all you want, but just know that you can never fool me.)

I looked forward to it for literally years, it was a decent scrap, then a suck-eggs draw. It’s amazing how much steam a bad or controversial decision can steal from a major boxing event. I hate to say this but it’s nothing new in this sport – from the fight that brought me back to boxing, Hagler-Leonard to Whitaker-Chavez to De La Hoya-Trinidad and Lewis-Holyfield I to De La Hoya-Mosley II to Hopkins-Taylor I to what happened on Sept. 16 – and I’m pretty sure it will happen again.

Ortiz testing positive didn’t help either. Luis Ortiz screwing up with his VADA testing and f__king himself out of the Wilder fight didn’t bum me out as much as it did others. Don’t get me wrong, I want to see Wilder fight a live body as much as the next fan, but I haven’t been as high on the Cuban heavyweight as other diehards have been. To me, his reputation was built on the “Cuban boxing mystique” and one stoppage victory against Bryant Jennings. And since the Jennings fight, he’s proven to be bit of a prima donna/diva where promoters are concerned (jumping from GBP to Matchroom to Haymon in the span of 18 months) and a tad ordinary given his less-than-stellar outings against Tony Thompson and Malik Scott. I think he’s a bit overrated. But even if you think he’s the “next big thing,” you shouldn’t cry too much over his latest situation. From what I’ve read, he’s just got to prove to the WBC that his high blood pressure doesn’t seriously jeopardize his health while in the ring (which you know he will) and he’ll be back in action early next year. Will he get another shot at Wilder? I don’t know, but wouldn’t you rather see Wilder vs. Joshua next year?

WBSS is only available streaming for me. Yeah, that kind of sucks (although I wish even the stream hadn’t been available for the Briedis-Perez fight). I don’t blame major U.S. networks for skipping on the WBSS quarterfinal bouts that have taken place in Europe due to the time-zone differences and the cost involved in flying a crew overseas to do the broadcast right, but I think they should have seriously considered airing the good matchups that take place in America, such as the Murat Gassiev-Krzysztof Wlodarczyk fight on Oct. 21 in Newark, N.J. That fight is going to pack the Prudential Center with wild fans and you know it’s going to be a scorcher.

And honestly, Rigo-Loma doesn’t do much for me because I expect Loma to win and get no credit for beating an old, inactive guy that I don’t like. You and I are in agreement on this one, but I still think it’s good that the fight was made. It shows that Top Rank can work with other promoters in delivering quality matchups to ESPN, there are some good story lines that will help push the fight, and there are a lot of (very) hardcore fans that extremely into either or both boxers.

I like Showtime’s card next week (well, 2/3 of it), as I enjoy watching Hurd, and Lubin and Charlo could be epic. Charlo seems to sit down on his punches more and is starting to bring the pain. Jermell Charlo is at his athletic peak, he’s got good technique and far more experience than Erickson Lubin. If he can take uber-prospect’s power, he should overwhelm the 21-year-old southpaw. We’ll see what happens, I don’t know if we’ll witness something “epic” but I’m expecting a compelling fight. Same with the Hurd-Trout matchup. Tout’s experience should allow him to compete well with the younger, stronger defending beltholder. As for Lara-Gausha, well, I sort of view that as the “walk-out” bout of this tripleheader. But hey, it’s mostly good TV. Kudos to Showtime and Mr. Haymon on this one.

 

RING RATINGS

Dougie –

First time I have written, but longtime follower. Appreciate all you do and love reading your updates and getting your insight and wisdom. I especially enjoy the Mythical Match-ups from all of the fans and your take on the results. Most of the time I agree with you.

I am writing today for a couple of reasons.

1) Tyson Fury and the Ring Ratings. My question is – how much longer is Tyson Fury going to be named Ring Magazine Champ? At this point, he hasn’t defended the title in 2 years, hasn’t scheduled any fights and appears to be gone from the scene altogether. Can we consider dropping him due to inactivity? I wouldn’t say that he has represented the belt in favorable fashion.  At this point, I am praying that he continues to work on himself first and foremost and as a fan I think that there should be a standard identified for how long someone can hold ANY belt without defending it. Please – there are other fighters out there that are actually fighting towards a championship….

2) Mikey Garcia – I’m talking old school great boxer here… He, along with Loma, Bud, Canelo, GGG and a few of others are a great representation for the sport and they are the kind of fighters that everyone wants to watch. I would love if they could put together an old-time show that had all of these fighters on one card. I know… I know… wishful thinking.

Anyway – Mikey was purely awesome in his last fight against “The Problem”. Composed, skillful, patient. It would not surprise me if Mikey finished as an all-time great. He is a joy to watch. Same for the others listed above. They are the here and now for boxing and they should be should be in the main stream media more.

3) Mythical Match-ups:

  • Sugar Ray Leonard vs McCallum
  • Deontay vs Joshua
  • Ron Lyle vs Norton
  • Ron Lyle vs Frazier
  • Hearns vs Lamotta
  • Jack Johnson vs John L Sullivan (both in their primes, in a street fight)
  • Hulk & Thing vs Man-Thing and Swamp-Thing

Take care and keep punching. – Joe Bronco

Thanks for reading the mailbag for as long as you have and for finally sharing your thoughts with other readers, Joe.

I guess I’ll start with your interesting mythical matchups:

Sugar Ray Leonard vs Mike McCallum – Leonard by competitive but unanimous decision at 154 pounds, and via very close, perhaps controversial decision at middleweight (or heavier). 

Deontay Wilder vs Anthony Joshua – It’s a fascinating matchup that could happen – soon – (so it really isn’t “mythical,” but whatever) and I don’t think AJ will have his way with the athletic American puncher; I think Wilder is very dangerous. But I’m going to go with the more technically polished and poised 2012 Olympic champ by mid-to-late stoppage. I think Joshua’s hand speed will give him enough edge and enable him to clip even the stick-and-move version of Wilder, but he might have to get up from a knockdown or survive a few wobbly moments before taking out the American.

Ron Lyle vs Ken Norton – You know what? In a bit of a “mythical” upset, I envision the underrated Lyle getting to Norton’s somewhat shaky chin by the late rounds of a fight that he’s behind on the official scorecards. I think it would start out as a tit-for-tat boxing match (in which Kenny would have the edge) but would gradually warm up into an intense (but technical) scrap. At the end of the night, Lyle’s whiskers were a little more reliable than Norton’s.

Ron Lyle vs Joe Frazier – I think prime version of Smokin’ Joe would force Lyle into a shootout and beat the gutsy, hard-slugging ex-con into submission by the seventh round of a Fight of the Year candidate. I think Frazier would have to survive a knockdown or wobbly moment in Round 2 of the fire fight.

Hearns vs LaMotta – The Raging Bull by late stoppage (and I’m assuming the fight takes place at 160 pounds). This is another case of a fighter with solid whiskers overwhelming a more gifted athlete who has a shaky beard (or in this case, a great chin beating out a great puncher).

Jack Johnson vs John L Sullivan (both in their primes, in a street fight) – Sullivan, the bareknuckle champ before earning recognition as the first gloved heavyweight champ under Queensberry rules, would do a lot better against the Galveston Giant in a street scrap than he would in the prize ring, but I still think Johnson’s size, speed, physical strength, stamina and, most importantly, far superior boxing IQ would be too much for Sullivan even in a fight without rules.

Hulk & Thing vs Man-Thing and Swamp-Thing – You silly ass nerd! Nah, I’m kidding, I’m actually proud of you for proposing this comic-book matchup, because I really had to think about it (more so than the Lyles-Norton matchup). Thing is the undisputed king of Clobberin’ Time, a super-strong and nearly invulnerable former street tough who understands the Sweet Science (see the classic Marvel Two-In-One Annual No. 7 for proof of Ben Grimm’s boxing prowess and fighting spirit against insurmountable cosmic odds) and the Hulk is an unlimited source of brute strength and power. However, Man-Thing and Swamp Thing are plant-based beings and aren’t solid. I’m not sure they can even be killed. Man-Thing is mystical (at least in part) in nature and Swampy is sentient plant that’s spiritually linked to every form of vegetation on the planet (maybe the universe) – he’s an elemental. Super powered punches would literally go through M.T. and Swampy and would not kill them. Man-Thing secretes an acid when confronted by fear or rage and being mystical, my guess is that it could burn even the Hulk, and as powerful and Big Green and Thing are, I don’t think they can withstand all the plants on earth restraining them at Swampy’s command. Sorry to spend this much time on this MM, you sparked the geek in me with this one, but I’ll go with Man-Thing and Swamp Thing via submission.

How much longer is Tyson Fury going to be named Ring Magazine Champ? I can’t say much about Fury’s RING-title situation other than there has been debate among the editorial board on what to do with him for months. However, if it isn’t resolved prior to Nov. 28, Fury will be stripped of the title for not defending it in a two-year period. (The rules state that we strip a RING champ after 18 months of inactivity but Fury has had fights scheduled during that period along with his on-going legal battle with the BBBofC and his personal struggles with depression, which has resulted in some leeway.) 

Mikey Garcia – I’m talking old school great boxer here… He, along with Loma, Bud, Canelo, GGG and a few of others are a great representation for the sport and they are the kind of fighters that everyone wants to watch. I would love if they could put together an old-time show that had all of these fighters on one card. I know… I know… wishful thinking. Yeah, I don’t see that happening… although it’s not totally out of the realm of possibility for a Garcia-Linares showdown to be the co-feature to the Canelo-GGG rematch. Regardless of when and where Garcia returns to the ring, we at THE RING share your enthusiasm for the three-division titleholder, which is why he appeared on the cover of the latest issue of the magazine (currently on sale and available in digital form via the Ringside Ticket subscription package).

 

CHAMPIONS LIFESTYLE

You already know how I feel!

Good s__t my dude. I don’t need to tell you I respect that dude. A dude who went from the penitentiary to an all-time great and never spit on the sidewalk and not only changed his life, but the trajectory of his family’s life. That’s bigger than boxing.

Keep it coming. Thank you. – Jason C. Brown

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on B-Hop’s new ongoing series on RingTV.com.

You’re absolutely right about Hopkins not only changing his life but the lives of his family. He’s a guy who went to prison as a teenager, got his GED while behind bars, but through his dedication to boxing, the force of his will, and his values (which go far beyond sports, money and fame), he was able to help provide his daughter, Latrice, with a much better life. She started college this year (at one of the better East Coast schools, NYU, if I’m not mistaken). That, my brother, is a paradigm shift for the better.

 

JUDGING IDEA

Hi Dougie,

Thanks for the mailbag, which I enjoy every week – this is my first time writing in.

As many mailbag letter-writers have noted, there has been an incredibly high volume of controversial / crazy cards in big fights over the past couple of years. Something has to be done, or boxing will continue to be largely ignored by the mainstream.

I vividly remember that in the ‘80s the mainstream (whatever exactly that is) would watch all of the big fights in some way, shape or form. Now only committed boxing fans do. I don’t think crazy judging is the main reason for this, but it’s surely one of them. To the average person, it makes the sport seem like not a real sport.

My thought is for big fights boxing should take a page from some Olympic sports and move to five judges. Look at the cards at the end, throw out the two outliers and let the three remaining cards determine the winner. Still not perfect, but it will eliminate the ability of one person having an “off night” (to be generous to Adelaide Byrd) to completely sway a fight. What do you think? – Vikram

I think it’s a good idea, Vik. I really do. Often times with controversial decision there’s one official judge that’s way off (as Byrd has been for more than a few legitimately close fights, including Canelo-Golovkin, Benavidez-Santana, Shafikov-Commey, Donaire-Magdaleno and Washington-Mansour). It would be great if the wayward cards could be tossed out before the official verdict was determined and announced to the world.

One question, though. Since the prize ring only has four sides, where would the fifth judge sit? Would you have two judges on one side? Or would you have one judge on each side of the ring, plus a fifth judge who watched the fight from a monitor at ringside or a studio or a production truck?

Anyway, I like your idea. I think I’ve got a pretty good idea that could help solve the problem of poor scoring, too. What do you think of this: How about boxing commissions NOT assigning judges that have had more than a few head-scratching score cards to major boxing matches?

 

IS GGG REALLY NO. 1?

Hey Dougie,I’ve loved the mailbag for as long as I care to remember so I thought I’d finally join the masses and send you an opinion.

I’m probably in the minority but I’m a little perplexed as how GGG is now P4P No.1 considering the opponents on his resume, the draw with a small, inexperienced middleweight and his lack of desire to test himself above his comfort zone of 160.

Impressive fighter with brutal power and a granite chin and whilst he has pretty much cleaned out the Middleweight Div, should you not have to do more to be the No.1? Its irritated me in the last two weeks how that ridiculous scorecard of 118-110 has overshadowed what a performance Canelo put in.

I scored it a draw with Canelo winning 1-3, GGG winning 4-9 and then Canelo pulling the championship rounds to snatch a draw. But let’s be clear here – GGG has been chasing a fight with smaller guy. And just went toe to toe for 12 rounds with the smaller guy without ever coming close to hurting him or stopping him.

For years everyone has been on Floyd’s ass to move up and chase bigger challenges, the way Pac did – yet we praise GGG for sitting in his comfort zone for an entire career and then drawing with a guy who had only fought once before above 155. Why not chase a fight with Ward at 168 (prior to SOG’s retirement)? Surely that’s where we’ll see if GGG has more than just power and a chin?

Canelo was basically hounded for 2 years to move up become a middleweight so GGG could be validated and he only got a draw and now he’s P4P No.1 I just don’t get it. Ward had to clean out at 168 and then move up to 175 to scramble a controversial UD and then stop Kovalev to finally be crowned P4P No.1. Prior to that Pac and Floyd (albeit way more carefully than Pac) went through the biggest names at 130, 135, 140, 147 and 154 to be crown the sports No.1 guy.

I personally just believe GGG needs to show he can do more than stalk naturally smaller or weaker opponents to claim that spot.

As a side note how Canelo is only No. 6 (beneath Kovalev!?) is another bone of contention but given the weird unappreciative nature the Boxing fraternity seems to have towards him I’m not too surprised. Love the mailbag, love The Ring Mag, love boxing – keep up the amazing work!! – Danny, London

Thanks for the kind words about this column, the magazine that this website represents and the sport we all love, Danny. And thanks for finally writing in.

The pound-for-rankings do not have any set criteria so it’s always debatable – especially the choice for the No. 1 spot – and I think the arguments that the mythical ratings spark are a big part of its appeal to hardcore boxing fans.

Personally, I think Golovkin is worthy of the honor (which was recently bestowed upon him by THE RING and ESPN.com). However, The Boxing Writers Assoc. of American recently came out with their own P4P rankings and announced that Terence Crawford is No. 1 among the world’s elite boxers. I have no problem with Crawford (or even Vasyl Lomachenko) being considered the best boxer, pound for pound, on the planet. I know that Crawford and Lomachenko have looked way more dominant against their recent opposition than Golovkin looked against Canelo or Daniel Jacobs. I know that means a lot to many fans and members of the media.

However, I’m one of those folks that places a lot of emphasis on a fighter’s quality of opposition when determining his or her rankings, be it divisional or pound for pound, and I think Alvarez and Jacobs are a lot better than the four or five best opponents on Crawford or Lomachenko’s resume. I think Canelo and DJ are more experienced and more complete fighters than Nicholas Walters, Viktor Postol, Gary Russell Jr., Yuriorkis Gamboa, Julius Indongo, Ricky Burns, Jason Sosa, Ray Beltran and Miguel Marriaga. I think Orlando Salido is a complete fighter (and a hell of a warrior) and he has more experience than Canelo and DJ, but they have superior talent and athleticism than the grizzled Mexican veteran.

Beyond who he’s fought, Golovkin is one of the few active fighters to hold more than two major world titles and his middleweight championship reign is approaching seven years, which is the longest among active titleholders. He’s also closing in on Bernard Hopkins’ middleweight title defense record. These things count in my book.

I’m probably in the minority but I’m a little perplexed as how GGG is now P4P No.1 considering the opponents on his resume, the draw with a small, inexperienced middleweight and his lack of desire to test himself above his comfort zone of 160. Golovkin wants to be the undisputed middleweight champion. I’m not mad at him for wanting to unify all the titles. I think division hopping is a little overrated (and often a clever way for some fighters to avoid challenges). And while Canelo had only fought above 155 pounds once before challenging GGG, he’s hardly “inexperienced” and he’s definitely not a pipsqueak – I’m fairly certain that he weighed more than Golovkin on fight night and he’s likely one of the strongest middleweights in the game.

Impressive fighter with brutal power and a granite chin and whilst he has pretty much cleaned out the Middleweight Div, should you not have to do more to be the No.1? Mike Tyson and Marvin Hagler were once at the top of THE RING’s pound-for-pound list for cleaning out their divisions. Several elite boxers were once near the top of the pound-for-pound rankings based on their dominance in one division, including Evander Holyfield (heavyweight), Michael Nunn (160), Terry Norris (154), Mark Johnson (112), Ricardo Lopez (105), Floyd Mayweather Jr. (130) and Kostya Tszyu (140).

But let’s be clear here – GGG has been chasing a fight with smaller guy. Let’s be clear: Canelo had been able to make 155 pounds because he’s in his 20s and we have previous-day weigh-ins in this era of boxing. If we still had same-day weigh-ins, Alvarez would have moved up to middleweight by 2015. He’s a little bit shorter than Golovkin, but he’s not a “smaller” guy (push that narrative to somebody else). And get this straight – GGG hasn’t been chasing Canelo, he’s been chasing down the undisputed middleweight crown. Canelo jumped on GGG’s radar when he beat Miguel Cotto for the WBC and RING middleweight titles. Canelo gave him the WBC belt, but Golovkin had every right to want to take the lineal and RING champion recognition from the Mexican star.

And just went toe to toe for 12 rounds with the smaller guy without ever coming close to hurting him or stopping him. Canelo is an experienced, skilled, ring savvy badass. That he was able to go 12 rounds with Golovkin without getting killed should not have come as a shock or surprise to anybody that really follows and understands the sport.

For years everyone has been on Floyd’s ass to move up and chase bigger challenges, the way Pac did – yet we praise GGG for sitting in his comfort zone for an entire career and then drawing with a guy who had only fought once before above 155. It’s possible to achieve greatness by staking one’s claim to a single weight class. Marvin Hagler and Carlos Monzon did it at middleweight. Why can’t Golovkin? Oh, and by the way, nobody gave Hagler or Monzon s__t for fighting stars from lighter weight classes, such as Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles, Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns and Ray Leonard.

Why not chase a fight with Ward at 168 (prior to SOG’s retirement)? Surely that’s where we’ll see if GGG has more than just power and a chin? Bro, if you think Golovkin is just power and a chin, you have a lot to learn about this great sport. Regarding a potential matchup with Ward, the timing was never right for that to happen. Golovkin had barely begun to make his name among U.S. boxing fans the last time Ward fought at 168 pounds (November 2013 against Edwin Rodriguez), then the American dropped out for more than a year and half and never again fought below 171 pounds. We all know Ward was not going to meet GGG at a catchweight and we all know that despite his respected stature among boxing media and hardcore fans, he isn’t a star or even a strong ticket draw (which Golovkin had developed into during Ward’s hiatus). So why did GGG need to chase Ward all the way up to light heavyweight when his goals resided in the middleweight division?

Ward had to clean out at 168 and then move up to 175 to scramble a controversial UD and then stop Kovalev to finally be crowned P4P No.1. Ward didn’t “clean out” the 168-pound division. And there were fans that were unhappy about Ward’s brief tenure as P4P King.

As a side note how Canelo is only No. 6 (beneath Kovalev!?) is another bone of contention but given the weird unappreciative nature the Boxing fraternity seems to have towards him I’m not too surprised. It’s sad but true, a lot of fans (and media) can’t stand Canelo. The ridiculous score cards he’s been given by Byrd, C.J. Ross, Levi Martinez, Dave Moretti and Stanley Christodoulou in his highest-profile fights has only fanned the flames of this hate. But don’t fret about it too much, the young man’s a rich superstar and Boxrec.com still has him at No. 1 in its pound-for-pound rankings (ESPN.com’s got him at No. 4)

 

 

Email Fischer at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at @dougiefischer

  • it’s good

    • Rick

      Right on.

  • Orca

    ‘One question, though. Since the prize ring only has four sides, where would the fifth judge sit?’

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/723cd43dce705eac2f13626c49ab4efe5f0aa1359ab639ec78e9b266fb3d672b.jpg

    • Randall Bannister

      Michael Buffer during his announcement – “The judges at ringside are blah blah blah with Captain Birdseye presiding over the ring”

      • Teddy Reynoso

        If the amateurs saw no problem where to place them, why would it be such a to do with the pros?

    • Giuseppe

      what if he vomits?

      • Orca

        He’d be lowered down with a small mop and bucket.

    • Jorge

      Lucky Judge. Best view of the Tecate Girls.

      • Orca

        That is one perk.

        • ceylon mooney

          with two peaks

    • Oc

      Classic one mate.

    • I love it! Call it the Fan Man judge position.

    • Ten Count Toronto

      Perhaps the 5th judge should be a “video judge” although I would argue 3 regular judges and two video judges would offer a greater variety of perspectives. However with few good judges I think increasing the number simply increases the probability of another bad one having an official scorecard.

      • Orca

        A video judge……. Have never thought of that. It’s an idea.

  • Randall Bannister

    “What do you think of this: How about boxing commissions NOT assigning judges that have had more than a few head-scratching score cards to major boxing matches?”

    I said something similar a couple of bags back. I think it could be taken further still in that commissions don’t appoint the judges at all but we have a professional judges association.

  • learnmore

    Lets hope more fighters, promoters, managers get it & ticket buyers, TV viewers chose wisely. 2018 here we come

  • Don Badowski

    Tyson Fury’s battle with depression? He beats Klitschko, and he’s so depressed about that he turns to cocaine. The depression causes him to gain a hundred pounds of blubber. Problems with the British Boxing Board of Control? And I thought you guys would bend over backwards to keep Ward as your champion.

    • Orca

      I will be stunned if Fury ever becomes a force in the division again. I would never have guessed that it would have turned out like this when the scorecards were read against WK. I have to say, despite everything, I really do feel for the guy and wish him well with the real battles he faces outside the ring.

      • Left Hook2

        Those battles outside the ring are real. I wish more people understood that.

        • Juan Manuel Valverde

          Agree, whoever’s deal with this knows how serious it is. I have a couple of family members that suffer from depression and bipolar disease and it can be terrible.

          • Left Hook2

            The message I try to convey is that just because you cannot see the ‘injury’ (such as a broken bone or a tumor) does not mean it’s not real. Pain from any source is hell.

          • ceylon mooney

            absolutely. dudes mental. hes also REALLY intelligent (part of the reason he says so much dumb shit). that doesnt work in his favor at all.

          • ceylon mooney

            huge. hate it for him.

        • Orca

          Yep. I mean, it’s not like he chose for things to turn out like this. He had just become the heavyweight champion of the world. The real champ. He beat WK comprehensively despite the dullness of the fight. The man was going to make some serious noise and make a load of money.

        • Wade Wilson

          Yes, they are and I know it up close and hope nothing but the best for him but the Ring should have stripped him awhile ago.

        • ceylon mooney

          man i couldnt see it turnin out any other way.

  • philoe bedoe

    Excellent mailbag again Doug.
    Can’t blame the WBC for not letting Ortiz fight for their belt, but you can blame them for putting Stiverne as their mandatory……….

    • TNT

      Blame them and “only in America”.

    • Orca

      It defies logic.

      • Oc

        Logic? Logic has no place in boxing mate, certainly not in the ranking system.

        I’d be laughing but it’s not remotely funny, it’s just plain old sad.

      • Wade Wilson

        Sanctioning bodies don’t even have a logic of their own. I no longer feel a belt means anything except who the fighter beat to get it and even then I wouldn’t care if there was no trinket on the line. Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson will always have my respect for thumbing their noses and fighting each other anyway.

        • Orca

          Yep, belts mean very little to anyone other than the guys that hold them. They just aren’t worth what they were. It’s all about who you beat. That’s all they really matters.

      • philoe bedoe

        You’d understand if Stiverne would have came back with a couple of decent wins against ranked opposition……….

      • philoe bedoe

        Would’nt have a problem with the rematch if Stiverne had beaten a couple of contenders since the last fight………..

  • Left Hook2

    I don’t want more judges..but at least it shows effort to ‘get things right’. If you have a decent, honorable judge, you still need to give them a better view of the action. For shills such as Byrd/Hoyle/Whitaker/DeLuca/Roldan/Christodoulou/Ocasio/Grant–the fight promoters have to show the savvy to protest their appointment and refuse to fight with them involved. A wrong scorecard can be caused by having a poor view, being into the moment, looking too hard…but turning in chalk for the homer/favorite time and time again….that is inexcusable.
    Linares-Garcia?? I’m in!!

  • wrecksracer

    The only way Linares and Garcia fight is if Garcia signs to a multi fight deal with Golden Boy? What kind of mob crap is that?

    • Left Hook2

      heaven forbid the fighters just fight….that ticks me off too..

    • Oc

      It’s crap but has been a standard part of the business since day dot.

      • wrecksracer

        The weird part here is that Garcia would seem to be the A-side. I’m not sure Garcia needs Linares or Golden Boy. It’s a good fight, though. I’d love to see it.

        • Oc

          Me too…my fingers are crossed.

        • Juan Manuel Valverde

          Yes he does, he needs to fight, that’s his job and Linares is a good fight

          • wrecksracer

            Sure he needs to fight. Garcia seems to have options elsewhere, though. Lomachenko, for one. Easter. Yeah, we would all like to see him fight Linares. I’m not sure whether he needs to let Golden Boy dictate the terms, though.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Linares is a much more viable option as he’s in his same division and is not promoted by the very promoter he left like Lomachenko.

          • wrecksracer

            Lol, it’s true. Arum is like a bitter ex-girlfriend. All the same, if Golden Boy wants to play hardball, essentially trying to sell Linares’ title to Garcia for future options, I doubt the fight happens. It will be interesting to see what happens.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            I still think it sounds better on paper than what it will be in the ring. I favor Mikey big, like dominating big.

    • TNT

      The kinda mob crap that gets people paid. Ching ching. 😉

      • wrecksracer

        Oscar needs to start styling his hair like Don King.

        • TNT

          Don’t give him any ideas now.

          • ceylon mooney

            id like him better

  • Juan Manuel Valverde

    Danny is similar to many other GGG haters, they are blinded by their hate and can’t see the obvious: Gennady is a darn good fighter. Seeing his scorecard first 3 rounds and last 3 rounds to Canelo lets me know that he didn’t want to give the fight for GGG even before the fight started. We all know that Gennady won at least 1 out of the first 3 (if not 2) and 1 out of the last three. So, why is it that people can’t see his greatness? Well, most of all because of fighters like Floyd Mayweather (who is great, don’t get me wrong). He made people think, especially younger fans, that in order to be great you have to be a boxer (aka runner), be unhittable, pot shot your way to victory, and not risk it with unnecessary punishment. In the past, boxers like that would be punished by judges because they didn’t “Fight”, even referees would tell them to fight. Nowadays if you don’t do that, you’re a basic brawler. GGG for all the older fight fans here, does a lot of the basics right. It all starts with the jab and GGG is the best in the game, that’s how he managed to beat Canelo and Danny Jacobs, the two toughest opponents of his career, with the most basic punch in the game. That’s how well schooled he is. His balance is impeccable and he has very very good ring generalship. He’s not perfect, but he is very good in most of the categories, and great in some. Defense: average, Power: Great, Jab: Great, Right Hand: Great, Left Hand: Good, Body Shots: average (Used to be great) Boxing Ability: Good, Balance: Great, Footwork: Good, etc. etc. You can see where I’m going.

    Now, the biggest thing that shows your hate Danny is mentioning Andre Ward. I never understood the comparisons, specially considering that both fighters were never on a collision course. As Doug mentioned, both of them were on different positions in their careers, the fight never made sense.

    Danny criticizes GGG for staying at Middleweight too long, didn’t Ward do the exact same thing? He only moved up when he couldn’t make weight anymore, he basically made his hall of fame status at the Super Middleweight Division. Now remember something else, Ward was an olympic 175 pounder, so he was always big for the division.

    Finally, staying at one division is actually harder than moving up. As a matter of fact I consider moving up being lazy (or simply growing in size and age). Being champion in a single division for so many years is probably the toughest thing to do in the sport. First you have to keep making weight even when your body tells you otherwise. Two, you have to keep yourself motivated. Three, you have to face new challengers, all more motivated to beat you than the one before. Four you have to face age and keep defending. Its very very tough to do this and whoever says otherwise obviously doesn’t know how hard it is to keep weight at an older age. As you can see with Gennady’s recent performances, he’s older and new younger challengers are going to give him fits (Canelo), he has to dig deeper to be able to win and that’s one tough thing to do.

    To me he is the description of a pound for pound champion: defends his titles, collects titles, faces all challengers, knocks people out, boxes when needed, entertains. What else do you need?

    • TNT

      I need to score the fight. This will be interesting. I wonder about your Floyd comment. Would old school boxers (of the likes of Pep, B Leonard etc) have been penalized for sticking and moving? Did people consider it running? Or the better question, in the past were there any boxers comparable in style (punch output and ring generalship) to Mayweather Jr, if so how did the referees treat them and how did the fans perceive them?

      • Juan Manuel Valverde

        I don’t think they penalized all of them, I think that most of those guys would risk it once in awhile, they would fight. You needed to score damaging blows to win rounds and they would. Not saying Floyd doesn’t do it, he did hit hard enough to keep fighters from storming, but I think there’s a perception within fans and newer fighters that if you don’t fight like that you’re simply a brawler and not that great of a boxer. The fight itself for me was like this:
        1, 3, 10, 12 for Canelo, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 for GGG. Close swing rounds: 1 and 11.

        • TNT

          I agree, many people certainly do hold that perception.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            So in other words, If I give the first to GGG, I would then have it 9-3, or if I give the last three rounds to Canelo, then 7-5… but reality is, I won’t do that, to me that was my score and I stick to that.

          • TNT

            Random gripe about scoring here, one of the problems I’ve encountered when trying to score a fight is that the camera angles make it is impossible to determine (based on that recording) whether a punch landed at all or landed clean. I really believe that some form of computer program based on cameras at all parts of the ring (above it as well) can help with the raw numbers of punches thrown and landed per round. Not saying that every punch landed is equal but it at the very least let’s us know if it landed or not.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Here’s another thing, when you’re there, ringside or close enough to see the action, punch impact is different. A friend of mine was there and he told me you could hear Gennady’s jab all the way to the back, while Canelo’s punches didn’t seem to have that much impact. The sound of GGG’s punches were felt all the way to the bleachers. He also told me that it was a pro Canelo crowd and that by the end they had turned on him. That tells you all that needs to be told.

        • ceylon mooney

          byrds score was a punchline and a distraction. the draw was a joke. everybody talkin about byrd. take her out of the picture, and one of those scores is still outrageous. ive seen rigged results with GB, ROC and haymon fights. is this an american thing? ive heard german judging is bad for home cooking, but i dont remember hearing folks flip out about fight scores in the UK til parker-fury.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            yeah, Don Trella scored the 7th for Canelo, one of the clearer rounds for GGG, the fix was in, and it wasn’t made by Golden Boy, it was the Nevada State Athletic Commission looking out for Las Vegas’ interest (Canelo is a sure deal with money coming, and vegas loves a sure bet)

          • ceylon mooney

            the 7th huh? nice one.

            NSAC you reckon? hmn. vegas got a bigger stake in a non-win for golovkin than GB?

      • Oc

        Doesn’t the legend say that Pep won a round without throwing a single punch.

        Has anyone ever watched the ’77 fight of the year between Foreman and Young?

        It’s got everything: running, holding and slapping…a real old-school HW battle (that was a crappy joke by the way) and RING voted it Fight of the Year, it WAS a complete stinker of a fight, Young stunk the joint out (though the crowd were loving it) had John Ruiz or Amir Khan put forward such an effort, fans would be going ape-s#*t over it.

        Anyway, it’s a pretty interesting study on how attitudes and what is quality in boxing matches has changed in the game over the years.

        • Juan Manuel Valverde

          Its a legend that is not proven. And yes one of Pep vs Saddler’s fight was also a foul fest.

          • Oc

            A classic in rough “old school” boxing (Kovalev would have been wise to have watched it before his last outing)…Fullmer vs Giardello is another one that pops to mind.

            Agree, Pep never won a round without punching BUT had he landed one punch to his opponents zero…it’s at least conceivable to think that he could have done that. Legend is just another way of saying: back in my day…

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Agree.

        • wrecksracer

          I was re-watching Hearns v Duran awhile back. As soon as Hearns stunned Duran, Duran tried to hold. The ref immediately warned him. It wasn’t even excessive holding. Nowadays, holding is considered an “old school technique”. From what era? The early 2000s?

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            From the 20’s an 10’s. There was a looooot of holding back then. Check out some of the old Jack Johnson clips, they seem to be dancing in there.

          • Wade Wilson

            It was leftover from the bareknuckle days where grappling was allowed.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            True

          • Oc

            I don’t know about the 2000’s only mate, Gene Tunney’s fights were all done in the clinch, as were most of the early day HWs, (guys like J. Ruiz would have been at home in that era)…that said, they did “punch” in the clinch much more than today’s fighters, even if a good half of those shots were to the back of the opponents head.

            You speak about Duran…that dude was THE master of the holding game…check out Lee Wylie’s youtube video on Duran’s inside game, great stuff.

        • ceylon mooney

          interesting. never seen it.

        • Hung Lo

          I didn’t think Young-Foreman was a bad fight, but definitely not FOTY material. That year had Saad (Franklin)’s first fight with Marvin Johnson, which is one of the best fights ever, and might not even be Saad’s best fight.

          The Ring used to just give the winners to HW fights and usually HW fighters.

          Foreman-Frazier I was a massacre and they gave it FOTY. Ali was even fighter of the year in 1978, when he was a shell of what he had been, because he made history by being a 3 time HW champ. In doing so, he went 1-1 against a guy with 7 pro fights.

          • Oc

            Well said mate. A shame they missed some great fights and fighters over those years.

      • Dee Money

        I don’t think stick and move boxers like floyd would be penalized. Heck, I dont think Floyd got penalized for being stick and move- the operative word being “stick”.

        Floyd consistently outlanded his opponents, so he has something offensively that he has done worthy of winning a round. Some people may not like it aesthetically, but true stick and move fighters (that actually land punches), get decisions and rightfully so.

        What ticks off fans are when you get clutch and move, cover-up and move, move and move fighters being awarded rounds. Where guys run, get outlanded, and don’t land anything of note, but then are given a round.

    • Ерлан Табылдиев

      Mate, You are 100% right about Ward. GGG haters forget that Andre was US amateur LHW champion at the age of 19, while 19 years old Golovkin was a WW. Hugh difference, eh?

      • Juan Manuel Valverde

        Yeah, but still, I don’t understand why they always want to pair them. Ward was a very good fighter at a different weight class and was never in line to face GGG. Gennady is still fighting in the same division he started and he keeps winning, Ward is retired… never understood the narrative by those fanboys.

        • Ерлан Табылдиев

          They just wanna see GGG’s defeat. And I admit he would lose to Ward due to size disparity. Heck, Golovkin isn’t even a huge MW like Jacobs.

    • Left Hook2

      Very well stated.

    • Werd!

  • TNT

    Beautiful mailbag. Really good fan questions and really good Dougie responses. This made my day.

  • Oc

    “It’s possible to achieve greatness by staking one’s claim to a
    single weight class. Marvin Hagler and Carlos Monzon did it at
    middleweight. Why can’t Golovkin?”

    BOOM! you said it Dougie. I can hardly stand it when people “require” that a fighter jump weights before they can be considered great…give him/them a break, if the fighter can continue to make his chosen weight limit for his whole career then so be it, maybe he should be commended for the discipline he is showing rather than slated for…whatever people say is the negative here. (Also, I am fully aware that most fighters actually do “grow” out of weight classes and that it is not a lack of dedication on their behalf that makes them move up, so be it as well).

    The credit of “greatness” should go to fighters that show an incredibly solid skill set, operate at the highest level in their division and fight every, or nearly every, hard-case of their era. Period.

    Had Floyd continued to kick serious ass in the SFW division for what, 14 years or so, we’d still be talking about the dude as the an all time great and master boxer of his generation (in fact he may have rated higher than he does now, at least he’d be seen as the undisputed number one in his division’s history). Instead he was hoping divisions all over the place, a move that got him “off the hook” against certain opponents while in their primes and allowed him to pick up a bowl full of alphabet (spaghetti) titles and eventually earn really some serious cash, so be it, good career move (he is the TBE in business acumen). A bunch of good career moves financially but not necessary in his quest of greatness.

    My opinion on the matter anyway. Respect.

    • TNT

      Don’t get me wrong, both you are Dougie are right: a boxer can remains his whole career in a single division and become great. It has happened. But It seems that many fans are allured by the guys who do things like Armstrong, Robinson, Duran, or Pacquiao. It might be more common too to see boxers fight at 2 or more divisions during the course of their career. That might be why many fans put the single division guys (GGG in particular) down, they hold these expectations for more. Or they are just haters. ha!

      • Oc

        Agree, some guys just grow out of their divisions, increasing bone/muscle density as they age etc. Some dudes just want the challenge, I remember an interview with Carmen Basilio saying he was looking for a fight as the WW champion, couldn’t get anyone to step up, then he said he got an offer to fight Sugar Ray at MW, he said to that: “hell ya, I can beat that fella” (and then went and done it…f”*king warrior), for nothing more than the extra cash of it and the sheer thrill of challenge it provided, I respect that same as the next guy. Floyd went up through the divisions for the money and the fame and he beat a lot of very good fighters in the process, I respect that too. Hagler didn’t do any of that shit, he just smashed the whole MW division before and during his reign and I respect that as well.

        None of these a fore mentioned scenarios is “required” to be great, just one of them will do.

        Respect mate.

        • Juan Manuel Valverde

          Exactly, just like GGG did. He smashed the middleweight division until age caught up to him, much like GGG right now. This version of GGG is the equivalent version of Hagler vs Mugabi, not in his prime anymore, but still able to beat top contenders. His reign is coming to an end soon.

          • Oc

            I feel it’s coming as well mate.

            Does Canelo beat him next time like Rungvisai did to Chocolatito in their rematch? I doubt it but you never know, I wouldn’t be surprised t see the younger man clearly win next time around. The long layoff for Triple G will do him good before a (hopeful) rematch in May. We shall hopefully see.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Might, might not…. Canelo’s is not the only one who can improve on what they saw in their fight. Canelo did exactly what most expected, he gassed, he always does, so why would that change? He’s always had that problem, that will happen again and again and again. There’s nothing he can do to improve it. Gennady will change his tactics, but in the end he will remain a pressure fighter and its all about his punch resistance and how much Canelo’s punch hurts him ( I do think it hurts enough for him not to rush in like he did with Brook).

          • Oc

            Canelo may not need to improve on his last effort though, old dudes can fall apart over night…I’m one, I can speak from experience :-). A sharp hard shot or two on the chops and a chin can crack, especially one with age and mileage (I hope not but it can happen). I know what you mean though, Triple G “could” of done better, more body shots etc. while Canelo was fighting at his absolute best. And you are right, Canelo gases, it’s how he fights…super sharp and super fast in everything that he does, that will always gas a muscular guy like Saul but, he did come back from a mid-fight slump this time around and that says to me (rightly or wrongly, I’m unsure) that as he grows into this more natural weight class he will suffer less from fatigue than he did before (something Dougie has also voiced on here).

            Whatever happens, I just hope we get to see it. As it stands I would not bet against either of these guys, that last fight showed they are very equally matched no matter which one your barrack for.

            Respect mate.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Agree, that’s why its an intriguing fight. Canelo fought his best and GGG didn’t, he still couldn’t beat him though.. Canelo came back in the end because he was saving energy but also lost him the middle rounds, so if next time he spends all his energy early, he might get ko’d by the late rounds.

          • Ten Count Toronto

            Somebody keeps fight a guy 7 years older then themselves, they’re going to get closer to winning sooner than later unless there is massive difference in class. I guess the big modern exception would be Azumah Nelson’s comeback wins over Leija & Ruelas, although I think circumstances were sewed in that Nelson was under-inspired in the earlier meetings while on the rematches the younger guys probably slept on him little.

          • Ten Count Toronto

            I feel there’s also a diminished swagger and self confidence in Golovkin from what seems to be his own awareness of a little bit of lag in both pulling the trigger and defensive reactions,

            But the single biggest and most obvious sign is the reduced amount of spring in the legs and time spent bouncing. This is almost always a reliable reflection of where a fighter is in relation to his prime from the purely physical perspective.

          • chickenstock

            Me too

          • Oc

            Great minds think alike mate…and idjits unfortunately. We shall see what category we fall into in time.

            Respect.

        • ceylon mooney

          well said

        • Teddy Reynoso

          When exactly was Hagler recognized officially as the best pound for pound fighter in the planet? With the likes of Larry Holmes and Sugar Ray Leonard around at that time, I don’t remember Hagler being acknowledged as such. Kindly refresh my memory.

      • Juan Manuel Valverde

        Yes but guys like Duran and Robinson eventually dominated divisions. Duran stayed in the lightweight division for 10 years, until his body couldn’t keep up, then he finally jumped up in weight, Robinson also dominated the welterweight division before moving up to Middleweight, then he dominated that division for several years before unsuccessfully challenging for the light heavy division. Until recently, there wasn’t a lot of jumping up and down division to division.

        • TNT

          Yeah, but you know how some people don’t pay attention to the details, the reasons that explain why people move up or down. They just see guys fighting in different weight classes (Duran was the eternal lighweight in some people’s minds). And there were plenty of guys who moved up across weight classes (at least 2, often to three), since back in the day (most probably for the reasons you list, which explain it thoroughly).

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            True, thats why its good to point out the details. Yes, they jumped weight classes but not before dominating their divisions, that’s why they are all time greats. I think Dougie agrees that only a handful of modern fighters can are ATG and the one he always mentions is Bhop, he did exactly that, dominated a division an eventually jumped to win extra titles past his best.

        • Mauro Hermida

          Robinson’s middleweight record is 23-10(or close to it). He did beat the top guys, for sure, but he also took his share of lumps. It isn’t domination.

          • ceylon mooney

            he may have lost, but he did dominate. lotta later losses.

      • Teddy Reynoso

        Armstrong, Robinson, Duran, Leonard, Roy Jones Jr, Oscar, Floyd and Manny and many others who have been recognized as pound for pound best in sunder eras actually put into practice the theory behind the pound for pound mantra. Golovkin has been in the position to do the same but he never even tried.

    • Joe Steed III

      The greatest of All time moved weightclasses Armstrong, Robinson, Jones, Hopkins, Ward, Mayweather, Paq, Holyfield, Duran, Leonard, Gonzalez, etc…etc…etc…. Y’all just making excuses for Ggg. Men move up period.

    • Nicholas Linnear

      Pound for pound has nothing to do with fighting in different weight divisions. Unfortunately very few fans actually understand the meaning of the term. It is an entirely theoretical rating based on how a particular fighter would do in all other divisions if he fought there with equal power, skill and style as he does in his current division. In other words, imagine a heavyweight fighter with Pacquaio’s mobility and skills and power from his best days in his most suitable division. Or a featherweight with Golovkin’s skill at cutting the ring, his punch resistance and power. Would they dominate any other division if this was possible?
      If the answer to these theoretical situations and questions is YES, then that individual would be the best fighter in the world POUND FOR POUND. He does not actually need to fight in more than one division during his career.
      It is a great shame that most fans today have not the slightest concept of understanding this entirely subjective ranking. In the overall picture of the sport, it is as meaningful as your fantasy football team. Everyone has a different one.

  • Stephen M

    Here is a thought about Ring Champions:. As the Ring champion is not necessarily the top rated fighter in his weight class, why not remove them from the ratings page and put them on their own page where what a Ring champion is clearly explained. This would clear up confusion and hostility.

    • Oc

      Wait, I’m confused as to what you are saying…and soon to be hostile, if you don’t explain yourself.

      Nah seriously mate.

      I would hope that The Ring Champion WOULD be the top dog in his division but should he not be then the Ring should just put the Ring Champion were he actually belongs in the over all ratings, e.g. Canelo at number 2 at MW even though he is the man that beat the man who beat the man etc. It doesn’t “devalue” the belt none and it is, for them, intellectually more honest than their current ratings.

      Either way anything to stop the bitching and the moaning 🙂

      • Stephen M

        I like that too.
        I guess because I learned a second language when I was young I have become a stickler for being precise about language use. The fact that the champion is at the top of the ratings and is not necessarily the best in the division drives me nuts…

        • Oc

          Ah, Canadians*…always wanting more.

          Nothing wrong with wanting it done right, I reckon…don’t let the “cowboy” job that the boxing industry does of it put a dampener on your day though mate.

          *(You are Canadian, right?)

          • Stephen M

            Yes, Canadian(unless I go somewhere else in Canada, then I definately identify as Québecois). Do we have a reputation?

          • Oc

            Oui, but it’s a good one.

            Your English is so good I thought it was your mother tongue and I guessed that French would have been your second language, I must say I am impressed (and as a sometimes English teacher my opinion counts :-), well done). Québecois…got it, shan’t forget mate.

          • Stephen M

            You were right. English first. Spouse is French though, just about all my clients and friends. I’ve absorbed a lot of the culture as well. So when I visit the rest of Canada (known as the Roc) I don’t feel much kinship.

          • Oc

            Glad I can still tell the difference between mother tongue English speakers and those that are not.

            I get the lack of kinship thing mate (RoC…classic), I live outside my home country also and would never think returning to live in Ireland where I was born and raised…I just don’t feel the love, for it or from it anymore. Plus, the weather really is as bad as the reputation…not a word of a lie.

          • Stephen M

            Where do you live?

          • Oc

            All over mate, I change countries every 4 to 6 months as I only work when I need to and travel around the rest of the time. This year started in France, then it was Sweden, now it’s Belgium and I’ll more than likely finish up in France again. It’s a lifestyle that suits me.

          • Stephen M

            How do you do the “I only work when I need to” thing? I hope I am not being to curious…

          • Oc

            No worries mate, how do I do it?….

            I got no “stuff”, that’s it really and if you got no “stuff” then you got no bills, then you don’t got a lot of money worries and can choose when and where you want to work. I’m being serious not facetious, stuff costs money and costs more money even after you own the fucking thing…no stuff, no expenses…then it’s just food you got to buy. I don’t rent either…I just mind houses (dogs, cats, misc. animals) for people hence the travel. It’s not a lifestyle for everyone but like I said…it suits me right dandy.

          • Stephen M

            Interesting. I’ve always liked the idea of voluntary simplicity but have only managed to pay it lip service. Kudos to you.

    • wrecksracer

      The funny thing about Canelo holding the Ring Championship and the Lineal Championship at MW is that he is considered a champion, but not by any real sanctioning body. No Mandatories. No sanctioning fees. Nice position to be in.

      • ceylon mooney

        without ever winning a fight at MW to boot! funny is right.

        but stephen the explainations would have to change per fighter cuz they dont follow they own rules.

        • Juan Manuel Valverde

          well technically he has, he’s fought several times above the 154 limit, that is technically middleweight

          • ceylon mooney

            yeah hes a middleweight, but hes only fought at middleweight once. weight classes are set by limit not weigh-in weight. no matter what i weight, 160 is 160. no matter what alvarez weighs, 160 is 160.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Yes, so in other words as long as he’s between 155 and 160 at the weigh in he is fighting at middleweight, if he weighs more during the fight, so be it.

          • ceylon mooney

            sort of; a fight is contested at 160 (MW) if and only if the weigh-in limit for the fight is 160 (MW) cuz weight classes are set by limit.

            so as long as the weight limit for the fight is 160/mw he is fighting at 160/mw.

            fighting at 160 doesnt mean you have to weigh in over 154. theres always been fighters fight up weight classes. weighing in as a middleweight but fighting at LHW, etc… you can weigh 151.09 and fight at 160. you can weigh in at 167 (which makes you a super middleweight) and fight at 175 (LHW). day before weigh ins have changed the relationship of the weigh-in to the weight class, so you dont see it much at all any more. actually i cant think of the last time someone weighed in at one weight class but fought in the next one up. could be rigo, cuz he walks around at mid-high 120s. i doubt he will tho cuz lomachenkos in right weight will be over 140 so rigo may put on some size. but he could be 125.5 right now.

            on top of that, different commissions and governing bodies have different ways of regulating how high above the weight class you weigh in at you can compete.

          • ceylon mooney

            not necessarily.

            you could say that, as long as he weighs in over 154 and up to 160, hes a middleweight.

            but the weight class the fight is at is a different story.

            the fight is at middleweight if and only if the weigh-in limit is 160.

            you can fight in weight classes above your weigh in weight. how much i cant remember–there are lots of restrictions imposed by governing bodies.

            for example, say two dudes have a fight at 168. you can still weigh in at 159.

  • Charlie U.

    I prefer guys to stay in their division and clean it out. Don’t leave it up for debate; let no one doubt who the man is at your chosen weight class. Then if you want to move up and challenge yourself at a higher weight class, by all means, go for it. Too many guys are cherry picking bigger but less skilled fighters to avoid (arguably) greater threats in their own division.

    • Oc

      Hear, hear mate. My thoughts exactly.

    • Dee Money

      I agree with this premise. For example if a fighter is at his absolute best at 140 lbs why do we want him to move up to 147? Just to see him in a closer fight, even though he may not be at his best; then when he loses we can say, “see I knew he wasn’t that good.”

      Boxing is a sport, the key determinant to being successful professionally at a sport is athletic ability. If a boxer is at his greatest relative abilities at a given weight class then he should be free to fight at said weight class and be the best he is- without fans clamoring to see him at less than his best just so he can struggle.

      I feel this is predicated on maintaining integrity within a given weight class (ie hydration clauses) though.

      • Left Hook2

        Plus…we get to see the best version of the fighter each time out. Did we really see the best Floyd at 147? Or wouldn’t it have been better to watch him destroy opponents at 140? Was Garcia his ‘best’ against Broner? If so, where was the power? Give me the best. At their best weight.

    • Mark Schoeman

      I prefer guys make as much money as they possibly can and whichever path they take to that end result is fine by me….and in the process I’ll trust my eyes and have the courage of my convictions as to where they stand in the process, while hoping that the networks/promoters cough up the money to make the best possible fights happen, but if not, I’ll grant fighter A has less a resume than fighter B, but I still think he was better at a given weight….and on the flipside, I’m not granting any greater weight to multi-weight champs for simply collecting belts.

      I just fail to see the merit in a guy stubbornly choosing to clear out a division, leaving money on the table in the process, and ending his career with less of a retirement nest egg. Is that fictional guy supposed to take a perverse pride in having to live on $20-30K less a year in exchange for fans online praising him for being the best lightweight of his generation? Will it be more a more/less bitter pill when those same fans say he’d not have a shot versus Whitaker and Duran and Dougie has him losing a clean sweep mythically versus other 135ers?

  • Wade Wilson

    So I finally have the answer: Keep scheduling fights and you keep your Ring title whether you go through with it or not.

  • Wade Wilson

    On the side with two judges at the Olympics they sit pretty far apart giving different angles.

  • Nixtradamus

    Modern-day slave Doug Fischer claims that GGG “became a PPV star during Ward’s hiatus’, ignoring the ample evidence that absolutely NOBODY outside hard-core boxing circles knows GGG. His best PPV numbers before Canelo were very low, even when the program included another HBO-manufactured P4P king in Chocolatito.

    And denying that GGG chased after Canelo is the epithome of dishonesty: everybody knows Canelo was GGG’s meal ticket, his only path to a big purse.

    What a dishonest, lying POS this modern-day slave is.

    • Juan Manuel Valverde

      Not really, Canelo came to GGG’s radar when he beat Cotto, before that he was looking for Cotto, before that it was Martinez… do your homework buddy.

      • Nixtradamus

        Lol….do we see a pattern of selectively chasing much smaller guys? Try to spin this one…

        • ceylon mooney

          caenlo is bigger and heavier than golovkin. so was brook, whod been chasing a fight with golovkin for about a year before it was set. well before the match was made, brooks handlers said they were looking for golovkin. i thought it was buillshit, but, as we know, it wasnt. anyway, brook was heavier and larger than golovkin every step of the way, from well before their first weigh in to fight night.

          as far as honest, you got a long way to go with this discussion. yeah canelo for years was the biggest potential fight for glovkin. no disputin that. but no chasing necessary. damn alvarez chucked his belt when he became mandatory to golovkin. thats as big a duck as it gets. so, yea, golovkin was chasin the significantly bigger alvarez, and alvarez was runnin for a loooong time. he was his mandatory, dude!

          • Nixtradamus

            Fact is GGG wanted Canelo because he represented a big purse – I don’t blame GGG for it. I would have done the same. He avoided Ward because Ward was not a PPV superstar and there was almost a guarantee GGG was gonna lose that fight easily. I don’t blame him for that either.

            Let’s just keep it real.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Canelo is also a darn good fighter (I don’t like his attitude but that doesn’t mean he can’t fight).

            The only thing that I agree with you is that GGG has never been a PPV star, but hey, tell me if Andre Ward is a PPV star in Kazakhstan? How bout here in his own home country? GGG is fighting in a market where he doesn’t belong yet still managed to grow a ticket buying fan base (Are you going to deny that?) in the east and west coast as well as europe. That is good promoting if you ask me.

          • Jorge

            Exactly let’s do a Crawford ppv as a headliner and see how many ppv’s he sells?

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            He already did one with postol and wasn’t successful, its difficult to be a star, let alone be a star in a country that isn’t yours.

          • Left Hook2

            my god son…go do the research on the ward-ggg timeline. ward said no due to injury/legal issues, and after that they went their separate ways. btw..i think ward wins at 168 and loses at 164 or lower.

          • ceylon mooney

            well of course cant disagree with any of that

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            There’s no guarantees, you never know whats going to happen once a boxer steps in the ring with another one. A lot of people expected Kovalev to KO him silly and look what happened? He outboxed the boxer! So, you never know.

          • D Johnson

            The truth ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here first!!!
            NixtraDUMBASS!!

          • Stephen M

            I kinda like Dixtradamus…

          • D Johnson

            Haha.. I’m feeling that as well.

          • philoe bedoe

            I bit of weirdness makes us feel better about ourselves lol……

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Brook wasn’t, even though he was heavier come fight night he was a naturally smaller guy. Canelo on the other hand had been fighting at the middleweight limits (between 155 and 160) for a couple of years now, some called it Caneloweight. He was been a bigger fighter for a while, so I do see that one.

          • ceylon mooney

            tho brook can cut down to 147, i dunno how hes naturally smaller, cuz he was bigger and heavier every step of the way. still looked shredded at 180+.

        • Juan Manuel Valverde

          They were all the middleweight champion at the time, so don’t see the connection.

          Hagler’s best wins are against a lightweight (Duran) and a welterweight (Hearns), yet he’s an all time great. Go figure!! Try to spin THAT one…

        • Ten Count Toronto

          If tehy were smaller guys they should never have been fighting for much less holding a middleweight title. Nobody put a gun to the heads of Cotto & Alvarez to invade Golovkins division and jump the queue.

      • Jorge

        This guy has a selective memory at best.

    • D Johnson

      Slurp, slurp, slurp get off his nuts then loser… you come on here every week whining like some bratty broad. You are like a chick that gets dumped, says she hates her ex, talks shit about em, but always seems to show up wherever he is. Man up and quit whining like a pussy.

  • NeverReadTheComments

    The very last punch in life of the most ugly,dirty and despicable “boxer” of the XXI century
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5fa4e557af4abe328738df894cec738407c4d06e2eb54de3e71eea592c0df71a.gif

    • Hung Lo

      That would be Luis Lazarte.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK3XsnYL7qI

      Hey ref, what’s a guy gotta do to get DQ’d? Threaten the ref’s life?

      Oh wait, Lazarte threatened the ref’s life in another fight after this, and still didn’t get DQ’d.

      • Ten Count Toronto

        Gotta say though, Solis was doing a lot of blatant, flat out hugging and arm holing in many of those sequences without any warning or comment form the ref.

        Not an excuse for so many hard fouls, I understand the two infractions are not in the same class (perhaps a throw or shove would have been more appropriate response) but it would look better if the ref had addressed both issues…

    • Teddy Reynoso

      Belt line.

  • Derek

    People who still think their waiting on finding out if ggg is actually good are a lost cause. You would have thought the amateur career and eye popping skill level would have silenced those questions but they don’t stop.

    • Dee Money

      I think there are people who refuse to accept that its possible to evaluate from a decent sample size, and make a valid judgement about what a fighter is or could be. They simply cannot accept that its possible to extrapolate beyond strictly who has the best resume.

      These people would assure you that Sonny Liston was better than Clay in 1964 because “Clay hasn’t proven himself yet like Liston, and Liston has a proven resume.”

  • Chris Stans

    It’s pretty funny when people try to pick at golovkin. They always use the same arguments
    1) chasing smaller guys
    2) Ward Ward Ward

  • Will Arbuckle

    I find the Ring criteria for there “CHAMPS” FAIR, but, in Tysons case if a fight is scheduled and does not come off, esp due to issues outside the ring, drugs , mental health issues etc, then they should be stripped, period. I see the issue of the man that beat the man, but is it not strange that in Canelo case his fight against trip was his first fight at middle weight, yet he was and is still the Ring middle champ. I’m big on divisions and weights so it’s rather foolish that you have a champ that never fought at 160 till Triple God. On the issues of atrocious judging these people should be removed, period. This is not the ladies first absurd fight scoring yet she is back making more money judging fights, utterly ridiculous. Imagine how a dedicated boxer feels after literally getting screwed after busting his ass for 8 to 12 weeks. In these cases an appeal should also have the power if won, to reverse a bad decision with a qualified panel going over the tape. There is really no pushback that punishes judges who can’t do a good job, she will be back judging in 2018. Please tell me how this woman also judges MMA fights…..lol. in a perfect world judges and refs would be extremely boxers because the criteria for scoring pts Imogen is not for someone with absolutely no experience in the sport they are judging. On a side note, if true I am disappointed that Trip and team seem to have agreed to wait on Canelo till May, unless injured, if I was Trip I would
    do of taken Saunders belt in Dec, if you want all the titles then go get it. G better bring his body work in the rematch, as Canelo, who I admit surprised me in sections can’t do much different then he did that night, his stamina is, and always will be suspect for whatever reason when he is faced with volume punching with power behind it, otherwise I think the likely outcome deserved or not will be a split win for Canelo no matter how well Trip fights, unless he gets the knockout.

    • Left Hook2

      I like the ability to overturn decisions rather than just ignore or order a rematch. For many fighters (Armando santa cruz vs casamayor), it is the only chance they will reach the pinnacle of their profession. He wouldn’t have had a long reign, but he could put that belt over his mantle and make some extra money in his next fight.

  • Teddy Reynoso

    Doug is definitely stretching it when he compares Golovkin’s one division reign to that of Tyson and Holyfield at heavyweight ( well, there is no other division to move up to for them ) as well as Hagler and Monzon ( I don’t remember either of this two officially been recognized as pound for pound best in their respective era with the likes of Sugar Ray Leonard and Muhammad Ali around ). Tyson and Holyfield in their respective prime at the heavyweight ( let’s not also forget that Evander had earlier won all the marbles and dominated in the cruiserweight, legitimizing the division in the process ) fought and defeated a battery of top class opponents that include reigning or rival and still respected former world champions as well as highly regarded or fancied challengers. The same was true with Monzon and Hagler. The same cannot be said of Golovkin who first won a vacant world title then proceeded to acquire two more belts, both of which also vacated by their original holders while turning back an assortment of foes which cannot be compared to the quality of opponents Hagler and Monzon had faced during their time.

    • Nixtradamus

      Excellent points – just don’t expect to change the groupies’ minds.

      • Teddy Reynoso

        Most of them are yes men and his fans appraisers anyway.

  • Teddy Reynoso

    To me, the main essence of being the pound for pound best is that we can have a specific great fighter theoretically placed in any of the boxing divisions and he would still emerge as the tops or at the very least a dominant force. Many have actually proved it by fighting and dominating in as many weight as their capabilities could sustain them. But others like those in the heavyweights as Ali and Tyson have qualities that without doubt make them dominant theoretically speaking in any weight class had fare placed them there in their prime. The thing with Golovkin is that he actually had and has the chance to prove that he could be a legit pound for pound elite by fighting beyond the middleweight but he never grabbed it.

  • Teddy Reynoso

    Just because Doug said so, it is so?

    • Nixtradamus

      Well, the thing is Doug Fischer’s position is compromised because he works for DeLaHoya and makes a living from little favors (airline tickets, boxing tickets, access to fighters, press passes, small cash amounts, etc.) bestowed on him by corrupt managers. It’s all a business: the networks are in cahoots with promoters to sell ultra-expensive PPV fights to gullible boxing fans.

      Doug Fischer is in no position to be objective or tell the truth. He must lie if he wants to feed his family.