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Dougie’s Monday mailbag (Canelo-GGG2 feedback)

Photo by Tom Hogan
17
Sep

CINCO DE MAYO 2019

Hi Doug,

Great fight. I thought GGG beat him up. For all of Max Kellerman’s talk of “Canelo winning the story of the fight” GGG was bouncing fists off of Canelo’s face (As evidenced by Canelo’s multiple face wounds shooting blood out). It was definitely a close fight, but only one fighter got truly hurt during the entire fight (Canelo in the 10th). I’ve watched the twelfth round three times now, and I have no idea how anyone can score that round for Canelo.

Canelo fought a great fight, I just think GGG did more damage. Who do you think won? Why do you think the judges decided for Canelo?



Here’s hoping for a May 2019 rematch. Thanks. – Quinn Leonard

Too soon, Quinn. Too soon. Maybe next September. That was a grueling 12-round battle, the kind that takes a toll on even a buck-strong fighter in his athletic prime like Canelo Alvarez, certainly on a 36-year-old veteran like Gennady Golovkin. Both middleweight stars (as well as their teams and promoters) need a break from each other. We can’t be too critical of Canelo or GGG if they take on second-tier fighters in their next bouts. 

I can see Canelo taking on David Lemieux in December in NYC (if his left eye heals up in time, which is doubtful) or Jaime Munguia next May in Las Vegas. I can see Golovkin taking on Ryota Murata in late December in Tokyo (if his right eye heals up in time and if the Japanese star defeats Rob Brant next month) or either winner of the Saunders-Andrade or Jacobs-Derevyanchenko fights sometime in the first quarter or half of 2019. If they win those bouts, we probably will see them do it a third time next September.

I thought GGG beat him up. Really? He wasn’t able to back him up until the 11th round. And what did his face look like by that point in the fight? From where I was sitting it looked like they beat each other up. This was not a one-sided fight for either middleweight.

For all of Max Kellerman’s talk of “Canelo winning the story of the fight” GGG was bouncing fists off of Canelo’s face (as evidenced by Canelo’s multiple face wounds shooting blood out). Canelo sustained the worst cut of the fight, but Golovkin’s cheek bones and eyes were bruised and lacerated by the late rounds, and he also suffered a cut by his right eye. Again, I think there was two-way glove “bouncing” going on during Saturday’s rematch. GGG definitely got his jab off better than Canelo, but the Mexican star got to the champ’s body better. I haven’t seen the HBO broadcast, so I can’t give a detailed opinion on Kellerman’s “winning the story of the fight” line but that sounds like the usual HBO big-fight commentary. (Did Max and Lampley somehow manage to work Ward-Kovalev into their Canelo-GGG analysis? I bet they did!)

Photo by Tom Hogan

It was definitely a close fight, but only one fighter got truly hurt during the entire fight (Canelo in the 10th). Yeah, but that was just one moment, and Golovkin couldn’t capitalize on it. That punch won him the round on my scorecard, but that was just one round out of 12. Apart from that one moment neither middleweight was visibly hurt or shook during the fight.

I’ve watched the twelfth round three times now, and I have no idea how anyone can score that round for Canelo. Golovkin took it on my card with those head-snapping uppercuts he landed. I don’t know how Canelo took GGG’s punches or how Golovkin took the younger man’s best shots all night. They both have world-class whiskers backing up their excellent defense.

Canelo fought a great fight, I just think GGG did more damage. I don’t know how you can ascertain that Golovkin did more damage. You can say he outworked Canelo. He landed more total punches, 234-202, according to CompuBox stats. You can say GGG out-jabbed Canelo. He landed 118 to Canelo’s 59, according to CompuBox. But CompuBox says Canelo had the edge in power connects, 143-116. So, how can you tell that Golovkin did more damage?

Who do you think won? I didn’t have a winner. I scored it a draw, 114-114. I have no problem with anyone who thinks Golovkin or Canelo won by a round or two.

Why do you think the judges decided for Canelo? Two of the three official judges thought Canelo won a slight majority of the 12 rounds, probably due to the fact that he landed the eye-catching head shots, worked GGG’s body, and staked out the middle of the ring all night. It’s as simple as that.

 

THE TREND CONTINUES

Whats up Doug,

So how did you score the fight? And how did two of the three judges give the last round to Canelo? Again, he gets the benefit of the doubt as he does in all his big fights as he’s the star and has had the silver spoon treatment since coming to America. I think it will turn casuals off knowing their fighters won’t get a fair shake against him… I feel bad for Triple G. His two defining fights in which he outlanded the younger challenger twice and got nothing for it… I understand he wants a third, but realistically there’s no point. He’ll get the same s___ty treatment again.

How does Canelo do against Jacobs, Charlo and the Andrade/Saunders winner? I think Charlo’s the dark horse of the division even untested… big, serious power and great finishing ability with decent speed and smarts. Anyhow, all the best, Dougie. Keep it up! – David, Dublin

I’ll try, David.

On a good night, I believe Canelo can beat the top middleweights that you mentioned. Even if you think he lost twice to Golovkin, you have to admit that he’s a hell of a boxer and fighter. Stylewise, Jacobs, Andrade and Saunders are more difficult for Canelo than the offense-minded (but still technically sharp) Charlo. Canelo’s got a big edge in professional experience over Charlo and Andrade. However, Andrade’s rangy, mobile southpaw style and athleticism can bring about shades of Canelo’s struggle with Erislandy Lara. Having said that, I think Canelo has drastically improved since that 2014 bout. As big, versatile, talented and experienced as Jacobs is, I think the New Yorker would need a performance on the level that he gave against GGG last March to beat Canelo. The version of DJ that went the distance with Luis Arias and Mackiej Sulecki will not beat Canelo. BJS might be the most difficult opponent out there for Canelo because he’s very good at controlling distance, pace and limiting contact/exchanges. We’ll see what happens when the WBO titleholder takes on Andrade next month. The winner of that bout is a strong candidate for both Canelo and GGG.

So how did you score the fight? I had it even, six rounds apiece. Here’s the round by round breakdown of my live card, courtesy of the Fighters.Network app:

Doug’s Score for CANELO VS GGG 2

And how did two of the three judges give the last round to Canelo? I thought Golovkin won Round 12 (in fact, I thought he swept the last three rounds), but I jotted down that it was “very close” in my notes. That how it seemed in REAL TIME, which is how official judges have to score each round. They don’t get any time to mull it over or review instant replays of the big shots landed by either fighter. Now, if you were watching the fight on TV (or laptop or mobile device), you get replays of GGG landing uppercuts and if you’re following social media as you watch, you might get a CompuBox breakdown of that final round that says GGG landed more shots than Canelo. But if you’re watching it live without all that, it looked like a close round. Still, I had Golovkin edging it.

Again, he gets the benefit of the doubt as he does in all his big fights as he’s the star and has had the silver spoon treatment since coming to America. A little bit in this fight, David, but this was nothing like those scorecards from C.J. Ross, Adalaide Byrd, Stanley Christodoulou, or even Levi Martinez (the Texas judge that turned in the 117-111 tally for the Lara fight). Seven rounds to five, in favor of Canelo, is not an unreasonable score in my opinion.

I think it will turn casuals off knowing their fighters won’t get a fair shake against him… “Casual fans” generally don’t fall in league with a particular fighter like hardcore heads do. They only come around for the one or two really huge mega-events that boxing puts on per year. And with this pay-per-view show (which was expensive) they got their money’s worth with the main event.

I feel bad for Triple G. His two defining fights in which he outlanded the younger challenger twice and got nothing for it… Nothing? When it’s all said and done (because it takes years for all the residuals from pay-per-view revenue to come in), he will have probably made in the neighborhood of $60 million from those two bouts with Canelo. So, don’t shed too many tears. The man is an international brand, a hero in his home country, a future hall of famer, and financially set for life.  

I understand he wants a third, but realistically there’s no point. He’ll get the same s___ty treatment again. GGG (and his diehard fans) are never going to get what they want against Canelo – which is a punishing, one-sided victory or KO – regardless of where the bout takes place. But especially not in Vegas, which will always bend over for the bigger name or money maker. It’s always been that way there.

 

IS THE POWER STILL THERE?

Doug –

Is Golovkin still the hardest puncher at 160? – Kevin Key, Duluth, MN

I don’t think so. He’s slowed down in recent years. I think the hardest middleweight puncher right now is either David Lemieux or Jermall Charlo. However, Golovkin can still whack with the best of them. (Just ask Vanes Martirosyan.) But Canelo’s got the right blend of solid whiskers and savvy defense to neutralize GGG’s best head shots, so he doesn’t look as devastating against the Mexican red head.

 

NO ROBBERY BUT STILL SOME B.S.

Dear Dougie,

First off great job calling the fight, you Kevin Kelley and Beto Duran did a wonderful job. I’m going through the fights as they happened on Saturday.

First off, it is great to see Chocolatito back in action, he has tweaked his style but he still has a high output and he still has the crazy accuracy. He KO’d Fuentes with a beautiful punch after making the read that Fuentes was countering him with right hands after Chocolatito threw a left. Not the softest touch on return so this bodes well. What’s next for him? Who would you match him up with if it were up to you? Lemieux confused me with his choice of music, but boy did things go his way. He stopped the most overrated fighter in boxing IMHO, but he showed what a true sportsman he was after the KO. I think we see him give Canelo a tough night next.

Munguia had a good showcase fight, got some rounds in but nothing special. The mind-blowing thing is that this was his fifth fight this year!

Here is how I scored the main event:

1st round GGG off that jab snapped Canelo’s head back

2nd to Canelo great work but GGG still in it

3rd for Canelo

4th for GGG better work, Canelo threw a lot of shots that were blocked on the arms

5th for GGG good work, Canelo did very well but I think GGG takes it

6th for Canelo

7th for GGG, Canelo had a great start but then GGG ended very well

8th for Canelo, we are even again

9th for GGG (close round)

10th for GGG

11th for GGG (close round)

12th draw, GGG was active but Canelo managed to keep up with him the whole way through

I could see a draw, which is what I think you got watching it live, and I can see KK’s card for GGG. Not sure I see a win for Canelo, but a great fight and probably an instant classic. No robbery, but I think some of the scoring was iffy again and that may have cost the older man who IMHO did more than enough to deserve the victory. I think if we do get a 3rd fight, Father Time beats GGG to the punch and it’s a blowout for Canelo. Where does GGG go from here. Honestly, I do not want him to be almost 40, get beat by some of these guys he would have destroyed in 2013. Thoughts?

No MM’s because I wrote too much lol. Thanks, Dougie! – Abed

The Three Amigos!

Thanks for the kind words about the online PPV broadcast (or the international feed, if that’s what you watched). It’s an honor and a pleasure to work with Beto and the “Flushing Flash.”

Regarding Golovkin’s future. I wouldn’t worry too much. He feels he won the rematch, so he’s going to remain mentally strong and confident in his ability. He’s smart, experienced, dedicated and he leads a Spartan lifestyle, so he’s going to be able to hold onto his world-class form even as his athletic prime fades. He’s only 36. He’s not close to 40 yet. I think he’s got another two years of being a top middleweight, and there are plenty options out there for him (some at 168 pounds).

I agree that Canelo would be a strong favorite in a third bout, even among those who thought GGG beat him twice. But if wants to do it again, I’m all good with that plan (as long as it’s not an immediate third bout). If he loses again (or if he loses to another top middleweight), so what? Losing is part of sports. As long as he gives his all and entertains the fans, who cares what his record is? He’s already posted hall-of-fame worthy stats for the middleweight division (one of the oldest and most storied in boxing).

Regarding your scorecard, it looks as solid as anyone’s, including those who think Canelo won it by a 115-113 margin. I don’t see how you can view the official scoring as “iffy” when you had it 7-4-1 in rounds for GGG but note that two rounds (9 and 11) were “close” and you had the final round even. If you scored those three rounds for Canelo you’d have it 7-5 for the ginger man. (By the way, I think the opening round could have gone to Canelo, and the 11th was one of GGG’s clearest rounds. That’s subjective nature of boxing and scoring for ya.)

First off, it is great to see Chocolatito back in action, he has tweaked his style but he still has a high output and he still has the crazy accuracy. The King has returned. And we’re not worthy of his presence.

He KO’d Fuentes with a beautiful punch after making the read that Fuentes was countering him with right hands after Chocolatito threw a left. That one-hitter-quitter was beautiful. As was the compassion Gonzalez showed for his fallen foe. Seriously, he’s too good for this world.

Not the softest touch on return so this bodes well. I agree. Fuentes was dangerous for a faded veteran coming off back-to-back losses (one a grueling 12 rounder, the other a brutal KO) and a year out of the ring. But hey, Chocolatito is a true champ. He fought himself back into fighting shape, got his timing back after a few rounds, showed that he can box as well as he used to pressure, spilled a lot of the other guy’s blood and then took him out in chilling fashion. (Have I mentioned that this sport is not worthy of Chocolatito?)

What’s next for him? I have no idea. Maybe the headliner of SuperFly4.

Who would you match him up with if it were up to you? I’d take him back to Japan for a rematch with that old warhorse, Akira Yaegashi, which should be a barnburner. If he prevailed there, I’d matchup with either Kazuto Ioka or Donnie Nietes (especially if they can get their hands on a belt – it would be a battle of four-division champs) and then call it a career.

Lemieux confused me with his choice of music, but boy did things go his way. He did it his way, which is to score an early knockout of a guy he definitely did not like. Spike O’Sullivan talked a better game going into the fight, but he forgot to duck once the bell rang.

He stopped the most overrated fighter in boxing IMHO, but he showed what a true sportsman he was after the KO. I can think of two dozen world-ranked fighters that are more overrated than Spike, but whatever. I’m sure he rubs a lot of people the wrong way, so I get why he’s being pissed on now. That comes with the s__t-talking territory.

I think we see him give Canelo a tough night next. Canelo will have to be on point against the former IBF beltholder. Lemmy is dangerous when his mind is right.

Munguia had a good showcase fight, got some rounds in but nothing special. The mind-blowing thing is that this was his fifth fight this year! Twenty years ago, it wasn’t a strange thing for world titleholders to fight five and six times a year. I applaud the young man and his team for keeping him as active as they have. He’s already got a lot of Mexican and Mexican-American fans from TJ and Southern California behind him. If he continues to fight as often as he does and improve with each outing, he can be a crossover star.

 

CONTROVERSY RATHER THAN ROBBERY

Hi Dougie,

Like every other boxing fan, I was glued to the screen for Golovkin v Canelo II. I live in Shanghai, so was in the bar at 10am ready to go. Usually, I watch and listen to British broadcasts of bouts – Sky, BoxNation and the BBC. Perhaps I’ve just got used to their style, but the bias of the HBO broadcast was jarring.

Kellerman dismissed every little thing that GGG did, saying by the 7th and 8th he was completely up against it and Canelo was dominating. RJJ wasn’t quite as partisan but was also talking up a Canelo performance.

I had GGG winning 7 rounds to Canelo’s 5 and that is giving Canelo the benefit of the doubt in the 12th. So, it was close! However, why do we have to stomach this hometown fighter nonsense?

What are your thoughts on HBO/Golden Boy protecting their cash cow and loading the dice against GGG? Maybe I’m biased, but this doesn’t seem to happen as much in the huge UK bouts.

Who would you favour in a rematch in May? The problem I see is that Canelo looks like the good guy for offering a trilogy fight, whereas everything favours him: the “home” judges; pressure from HBO on the whole event (I can imagine the unconscious effect that could have on judges); and, the big one, GGG would be another year older. GGG’s best chance was the first fight – he won it but was told he lost. He was given a second fight – he won it in my eyes and most people at home. How would his chances improve in a third fight?

Keep up the great work. What’s the toughest fight to call that you’ve ever been present for? – Tom, Shanghai (by way of Manchester)

Thanks for writing, Tom. I’m not sure what you mean by “toughest fight to call” for me. Do you mean toughest to score? Toughest to commentate on? In terms of scoring, the Canelo-GGG rematch is up there. Throughout the broadcast, Kevin Kelley and I looked at each other immediately after a round ended and shrugged our shoulders before jotting down who we thought won it in our notes. There were a lot of toss-up rounds. I thought the official judges had a tough job that night and said so throughout the broadcast. Golovkin and Canelo just match up in a way that makes for hotly contested bouts. Canelo made the right adjustments to make the second bout tighter than the first bout (which I expected). I have to slightly favor him in the third bout. Father Time is on his side. 

Usually, I watch and listen to British broadcasts of bouts – Sky, BoxNation and the BBC. Perhaps I’ve just got used to their style, but the bias of the HBO broadcast was jarring. I keep hearing this. I guess I gotta check it out for myself. I’m not sure what fans expect me to say about it, though. It is what it is. That’s always been HBO’s style. Hey, when GGG is the bigger star in a matchup they go bonkers for him (unless he’s fighting a native New Yorker, of course). Maybe you should have tuned into the BT Sports broadcast. Color commentator Barry Jones, one of the THE best in the business in my humble opinion, scored it 116-112 for Golovkin. Or you could have found the English international feed, which featured me, Beto Duran and the Flushing Flash. I had it a draw, while Kelley scored it for GGG by a 115-113 margin.

Kellerman dismissed every little thing that GGG did, saying by the 7th and 8th he was completely up against it and Canelo was dominating. Hey, I had GGG down 5-1 after six rounds, so on points Canelo WAS dominating. However, I could also see that GGG was setting a very fast pace and putting forth a tremendous workrate (especially for a 36-year-old fighter) – and I didn’t read too much into the heavy breathing between rounds – so I wasn’t surprised when Canelo slowed down over the second half of the fight. 

RJJ wasn’t quite as partisan but was also talking up a Canelo performance. I think Jones is an excellent color commentator who often times provides fascinating insight into HBO’s fights, but if he’s a fan of a certain fighter he’s never bothered to hide it.

I had GGG winning 7 rounds to Canelo’s 5 and that is giving Canelo the benefit of the doubt in the 12th. So, it was close! However, why do we have to stomach this hometown fighter nonsense? I don’t think you do to have to “stomach it” if you’re talking about the way the TV commentators present the fight. These days – thanks to streaming TV – you have the option of choosing from a variety of international broadcasts, each with their own commentating crew.

What are your thoughts on HBO/Golden Boy protecting their cash cow and loading the dice against GGG? HBO had no say so in the selection of the judges. That was the Nevada Athletic Commission. Golden Boy Promotions and GGG Promotions had a say so in the selection process (in fact Team GGG vetoed a couple judges and refs) and were satisfied with who they wound up with. You can’t blame HBO and GBP for the scoring of the rematch. You can blame HBO for “biased” commentary if you feel that way (though keep in mind that Harold Lederman scored the fight 116-112 for GGG), but that’s about it.

 

CANELO-GGG RIVALRY, MAYPAC2

Hey Doug,

Do you think the GGG- Canelo rivalry could go down in history as the Ali-Frazier match of the middleweight division?

I rooted for Canelo bcoz I think he was the underdog of the match. GGG was just a dominant fighter with a fear factor of Iron Mike in the ring.

Anyways, as had been said, MayPac 2 could happen this December. Your thoughts on this “fiasco”? Hahaha.. Would a May-Canelo 2 viable? Godbless! – markslain

Of course, a Mayweather-Canelo rematch would viable, and I’m sure Golden Boy and Team Canelo would love to get another crack at the famous future first-ballot hall of famer. But that fight is waaaaaaaaaaay too dangerous for Mayweather (especially at this stage of his career – semi-retirement). It would never happen.

MayPac2? Yeah, that can definitely happen. Both icons are faded and both are always in need of money (Floyd less so than Manny, but Mayweather has a bigger need for attention than the Filipino politician).

If they do it again, may God Bless them both. I hope they have fun with the entire promotion – and the fight itself. Neither man should even try to hurt the other once the bell rings. They don’t owe their doofus-ass fans s__t. Anyone who would pay to see that silliness deserves to be outright conned. Seriously, they should shuck and jive for 12 rounds (literally turn it into a dance-off) and after the final bell rings, they should laugh directly into the TV cameras. Manny can let Floyd do all the talking: “You stupid mother f__ckers! We got you again, bitches!” All Pac has to do is giggle his ass off.

Do you think the GGG-Canelo rivalry could go down in history as the Ali-Frazier match of the middleweight division? No, it was marred with too much controversy, and as good as the middleweights meshed in the ring, their two bouts don’t come close to the action and drama of Ali-Frazier I and III. Don’t get me wrong, though. They’ve got a hell of a rivalry going, and their rematch was a classic close/controversial middleweight championship that was on par with Hagler-Leonard and James Toney-Mike McCallum I. The kind of fight that will be debated for years to come.

I rooted for Canelo bcoz I think he was the underdog of the match. That’s nice of you. (He was a slight betting underdog.) My 11-year-old daughter texted me during the fight to let me know that she was rooting for Canelo because he had a nasty cut over his left eye and because there were people in the room where she watched it screaming for GGG to “kill him.” I let her know that they didn’t really mean that. (I hope.)

GGG was just a dominant fighter with a fear factor of Iron Mike in the ring. And just like Tyson, he will one day be inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame and he’ll have a legion of fans there to witness it.

 

THE REMATCH DELIVERED BIG

Hi Doug,

Very satisfied with what we saw tonight between these two warriors, they put everything on the line and gave us the best big fight in years.  I’m a big Gennady fan and even though I’m a 100% Mexican I’m not a fan of Canelo’s arrogance and the way he carries himself like a diva.  Inside the ring though I’ve always thought he was a very good fighter and tonight he proved he belongs in the conversation with the best. I felt the fight was close enough to give a good argument on both men winning. I felt GGG won a close hard-fought decision with the control of the ring with the jab and distance being the main difference.

Canelo though made plenty of rounds close enough for me to doubt my scorecard which usually means I’m being a little biased towards my favorite.  So, in other words I think it was a good fight with a fair decision.

I just want to say that Gennady Golovkin is one of the finest fighters of our era, very underrated boxing skills. It took a guy 8 years younger in his physical prime to barely edge him. Even in his declining years he made a good argument that he won his toughest fight against a much younger, very good, potentially great fighter. It’s sad that he can’t claim a victory at least in one of the two fights. He definitely deserved that at least once.

The fight to me was great, full of drama, both guys showed plenty of sides to their game and most of all they showed great heart and chin. I must admit I came away very impressed by Canelo and his strong statement to push forward. I never expected that from him. Hopefully people shut up about a robbery. This was a close fight and there’s going to be different opinions. Both fighters deserve a lot of credit and I hope people pay their respects. Awesome night of boxing.

Thanks Doug. – Juan Valverde

Juan, I couldn’t have put it better myself. ‘Nuff said for one mailbag.

 

 

Email Fischer at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at @dougiefischer

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