Saturday, November 25, 2017  |

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Dougie’s Monday mailbag (Daniel Jacobs, Jarrell Miller, Josh Taylor, Artur Beterbiev and Cletus Seldin)

Photo / @HBOboxing
13
Nov

HBO’S TRIPLE HEADER

First, I have to give Cletus “The Hebrew Hammer” props. I swear I knew exactly how he was going to fight just by looking at his crazy shoulders and lack of neck. He is a total meat grinder! I have always loved that old-school armadillo style too. I look forward to seeing him against maybe Vargas or Postol.

I hate to say it, but Jarrell Miller might be the new Chris Arreola. Like Chris he is 6’4″, kinda sloppy and jiggly but he throws a lot and usually makes for entertaining fights. And, also like Chris, I want to root for Miller but he is going to get murdered if he moves up to the top dogs.

Now on to the main event. Wow that was a really dull fight. I am surprised Daniel Jacobs could do so well against Gennady Golovkin but then put on snore fests like that and the Sergio Mora rematch. I wouldn’t mind seeing him against Jermall Charlo but I do not care to see him against GGG again. I think Charlo might be mean enough to win that fight but it won’t be easy. Then Charlo can fight GGG next November.

Here are a few MMs:

Pernell Whitaker, Julio Cesar Chavez, and Aaron Pryor vs Terence Crawford at 140.

Tommy Hearns, Michael Moore, and James Toney vs Andre Ward at 175.

Happy Veteran’s Day. – Matt on Merritt Island

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Matt.

I like Pea, JC Superstar and The Hawk over Crawford via competitive but clear unanimous decisions in entertaining fights.

I favor the Hitman and Double M by mid-to-late TKO, and Ward via close, maybe controversial decision over Lights Out.

Photo / @HBOboxing

I have to give Cletus “The Hebrew Hammer” props. He is a total meat grinder! I liked what I saw against Roberto Ortiz and I want to see more. He’s got personality and an action style. I like to see club show-developed fighters (in this case Joe DeGuardia’s Paramount Theater series in Huntington, New York – same promoter and venue that brought up Chris Algieri and Joe Smith Jr.) make the transition to the world scene.

I don’t consider him a top-10 junior welterweight contender yet, but he’s a welcome addition to the 140-pound mix.

I look forward to seeing him against maybe Vargas or Postol. Jessie Vargas? Hasn’t he been at welterweight since 2015 (and inactive since losing to Pacquiao last November)? I guess Postol is possible but a bad style matchup for Seldin (although I heard the Ukrainian stick-and-mover struggled in his last bout). I’d rather see Seldin in against a fellow grinder like Antonio Orozco (if the San Diego resident can still make 140) or an aggressive boxer-puncher like Regis Prograis.

I hate to say it, but Jarrell Miller might be the new Chris Arreola. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. Arreola made for many entertaining heavyweight battles before his decidedly less-than-Spartan lifestyle and penchant for slugging it out caught up with him. But, like my man Harold Lederman, I gotta tell ya – I think prime Arreola would have got rid of Wach in far more decisive and entertaining fashion than Miller did.

Like Chris he is 6’4″, kinda sloppy and jiggly but he throws a lot and usually makes for entertaining fights. I think Big Baby can make for fun fight if he’s in with an aggressive opponent. Otherwise, he can be in some stinkers. Despite his high punch-output, he’s not one to apply hard pressure, and I don’t think he gets the kind of leverage that Arreola used to get on his power punches.

And, also like Chris, I want to root for Miller but he is going to get murdered if he moves up to the top dogs. We’ll see. It’s not a very deep division. Beyond Anthony Joshua and Deontay Wilder, and maybe Alexander Povetkin (who may never fight in the U.S.), who do we have? Joseph Parker? He barely beat another fat heavyweight, Andy Ruiz Jr., and was probably lucky to get the nod against Hughie Fury. Dillian Whyte? His claim to fame is getting KTFO by AJ and just edging Dereck Chisora out in their fabulous slugfest. Dominic Breazeale? Hey, I like Dom, and I think he would make for a good fight, but let’s be honest, he’d be considered a gatekeeper in any other era. I think Miller’s got a shot at being a major player.

I am surprised Daniel Jacobs could do so well against Gennady Golovkin but then put on snore fests like that and the Sergio Mora rematch. Styles make fights, and GGG is the kind of formidable opponent that will give a competitive talent like Jacobs a reason to train his ass off and be at his absolute best when he steps into the ring. Mora is a crafty veteran with an unorthodox style, and Arias got under Jacobs’ skin a bit with his pre-fight trash talk. Plus, I think Jacobs had a hard time getting up for Arias, who he probably viewed more as a prospect than a peer.

I wouldn’t mind seeing him against Jermall Charlo but I do not care to see him against GGG again. It’s going to take more than a UD over Luis Arias to earn Jacobs a return engagement with Golovkin, but a victory over Charlo would probably do it. However, I think the plan for Team Jacobs is to target the Billy Joe Saunders-David Lemieux fight next month and, if he wins that WBO title bout, go for a total unification showdown with the Canelo-GGG rematch winner.

I think Charlo might be mean enough to win that fight but it won’t be easy. I favor Jacobs in that fascinating matchup.

Then Charlo can fight GGG next November. Charlo is the WBC’s No. 1 contender, so he’s in line to face the winner of the Golovkin-Canelo rematch. If Canelo decides that he doesn’t want to do an immediate rematch with GGG, Charlo could get his title shot even sooner. Golovkin mentioned Charlo as a possible “contingency plan” opponent for early 2017 when he recently sat down with Steve Kim and Yours Truly at promoter Tom Loeffler’s office in Santa Monica.

 

IMPRESSED WITH BIG BABY

Hey Doug – Watching Jarrell Miller and hearing Max Kellerman bashing his weight, and rightfully so, I found myself impressed with Miller’s combination punching, and especially the doubling and tripling of his jab. I was also impressed with his defensive ability to feint, roll and turn away from punches. Most heavies don’t do that.

Lastly, I had to mute the sound before Max or Roy Jones or Jim Lampley said “power” one more time during Cletus Seldin’s fight. I could almost hear HBO brass in my own imaginary headset telling me to say “push the power angle” after a while. Play some Pantera and watch them lipsync to it.

Thoughts?

Thanks! – Gabe 

I’ll pass on the Pantera lip-syncing exercise, Gabe.

More than a few fans on my Twitter timeline were irked by the enthusiasm HBO’s broadcast booth had for Seldin, but I wasn’t bothered by it. In fact, I didn’t pay attention to social media or the commentators during that fight. I didn’t bother taking any notes, either. I just sat back and watched Seldin go about his brutally physical craft, which I suppose is a compliment to “the Hebrew Hammer.”

Do I believe that we’re witnessing the second coming of Barney Ross? Uh, hell-to-the-no. Do I think Seldin combines the accurate power of Kostya Tszyu with the relentless aggression of Aaron Pryor? Please! Do I think Seldin is even a top-10 junior welterweight? No, not yet.

Photo / @HBOboxing

So what is he? He’s just a fun fringe contender. That’s good enough for me. If he’s in the right matchups, I’ll be more than happy to watch him on HBO again.  

Regarding Miller, he does have a nice, busy jab, and some good defensive and upper-body moves despite his prodigious girth. As I said in a previous response, Big Baby has the potential to be a major player in this somewhat shallow heavyweight division.

 

TAYLOR VS. VAZQUEZ, ARTUR BETERBIEV

Hi Dougie,

I hope you are well. I watched the Josh Taylor v Miguel Vazquez fight and was impressed by Taylor’s technique. Still think he needs one or two more challenges before going world level and the European (title) could be up next which is a good shout.

He looked wobbly in the first half of the fight but he worked him out and confidence being a big part of this game he suddenly looked slick and accurate in chopping down his previously unfelled foe.

On a side note Artur Beterbiev looked rusty and his opponent was trying to survive. Are you buying this “trying to get rounds” theory? I know I said he was going to demolish Badou Jack and I still think he’s got too much power for anyone in that class. Anyway, I’ll probably be eating humble pie in a year or so take care cheers. – Rob in the U.K.

I think Beterbiev is legit top-five or six light heavyweight and I’m happy for his world title win on Saturday, but I didn’t see anything in that fight that made me question my believe that Jack would upset the Russian should the two ever meet.

Photo / @TRboxing

I know that inactivity/rust was a factor in Beterbiev’s performance, but I’ve always thought the former amateur star was a bit too methodical (something I noted in this mailbag column when it took him seven rounds to chop down gatekeeper Alexander Johnson in June 2015), and I said it would be evident when he stepped in with experienced stick-and-movers or when faced with true world-class opposition. And, guess what? I don’t think he’s really faced a legit contender in his 12 pro bouts. Tavoris Cloud was probably still ranked when he blasted the former titleholder in 2014, but let’s be real – Gabriel Campillo exposed  T.C., Bernard Hopkins took his confidence and Adonis Stevens snatched his soul. Cloud was a shell of a man by the time he faced Beterbiev. And Campillo was also shopworn when he fought the Russian.

“King Artur” is the new IBF beltholder and Oleksandr Gvozdyk and Marcus Browne are ranked in the IBF’s top 10. If he can beat one of those contenders, I’ll become a true “belibiever.”

I watched the Josh Taylor v Miguel Vazquez fight and was impressed by Taylor’s technique. So was I. I think the Scotsman has more than technique, he’s got world-class athleticism and ring generalship. I know that he didn’t start boxing until he was 15, so he must be a natural talent who was taught by some very good teachers. With only 11 pro bouts, Taylor is already in THE RING’s junior welterweight rankings. And I think he’ll climb into the top five by mid-2018.

Still think he needs one or two more challenges before going world level and the European (title) could be up next which is a good shout. I agree, but I don’t think his management should hesitate in moving him aggressively after he proves to be the best 140 pounder on the European scene. He’s got the WBC’s silver title, which puts him in the mix with top-10 WBC contenders, such as J.C. Ramirez (who looked excellent in bombing out Mike Reed on Saturday), Regis Prograis, Amir Imam and Omar Figueroa, and I think he’s got the ability to beat these standouts.  

He looked wobbly in the first half of the fight but he worked him out and confidence being a big part of this game he suddenly looked slick and accurate in chopping down his previously unfelled foe. Taylor didn’t look “wobbly” at all to me early in the fight. He just needed some time to get a feel for Vazquez’s herky jerky style, and I thought he figured it out by the middle rounds. Taylor’s got excellent timing and he’s a good judge of distance. Once he got a grip on that, he went to work on the Mexican veteran’s body, which led to the stoppage.

 

THE RABBIT PUNCHER

Danny “Rabbit Punch” Jacobs could beat Canelo Alvarez? I’d love to see that s__t. Canelo would clean clock his rabbit punching, complaining ass. What are your thoughts? – Robert

I think Jacobs is all wrong stylistically for Canelo. Aggressive, come-forward types like GGG and Lemieux play more into Canelo’s strengths and ring savvy, than a big, athletic counter puncher who can stick and move and switch-hit.

Regarding the rabbit punching, I think Arias’ tendency to duck low and lunge in has he launches his overhand rights and his habit of covering up and falling in to block or smother punches was part of the reason Jacobs nailed him to the back of the head as often as it occurred.

 

ANTHONY JOSHUA ISN’T DUCKING ANYONE

Hi Doug,

I really enjoy your mailbag each week and want to join the debate. This is my first time writing in, so I hope I don’t go on too much!

I wanted to talk about the three heavyweights who are being very vocal in calling out Anthony Joshua and accusing him of trying to duck them. Unfortunately, there are some casual, and incredibly, hardcore boxing fans daft enough to go along with this narrative. Let’s look at them each individually…

TYSON FURY. As a proud Englishman, I generally support my countrymen in the big fights. Therefore, I was delighted when Fury pulled off the upset against Klitschko. However, still calling himself the real champion after never defending the title and not fighting for 2 years is wearing very thin. In my mind he is no more the lineal champion than Lennox Lewis or Vitality Klitschko. Until he is mentally or physically ready to return to the ring (preferably both) he is only embarrassing himself banging on about what he thinks he could do with AJ. Before his title defence against Takam, Joshua said, “I cannot live off my win against Klitschko forever… I need to push forward.” A very poignant statement and words which highlight the difference between Joshua and Fury.

JOSEPH PARKER. I respect Parker, and don’t hold him responsible for the dull fight against Hughie Fury (who unfortunately employed the same negative and boring tactics that proved successful for his cousin against Klitschko). I think a fight between Parker and Joshua might actually turn out to be the best fight available due to their styles, but asking for 50/50 (or even 40/60) of the total purse is fanciful considering what both fighters bring to the party. It should also be remembered that Parker was offered a shot against AJ last December but he and his team turned it down to take the easier route to a “world title” by facing Ruiz Jr.

DEONTAY WILDER. By far the biggest threat to Joshua because of his speed, athleticism and genuine knockout power. But like Parker, has to understand that he is very much the B side. When Lennox Lewis wanted to become the undisputed heavyweight world champion against Evander Holyfield in their first fight in 1999, he had to accept that The Real Deal was more well know and had two title belts to his one. Lewis therefore accepted 1/3 of the fight purse to Holyfield’s 2/3 because he really wanted the fight. If Wilder really wanted the fight as much as Lewis did back then, he would be able to get it.

In short, of course Fury, Parker and Wilder are calling out Joshua. They all need him far more than he needs them. He is recognised universally as the number one heavyweight and they would all make multiple times their highest payday by fighting him and him only. That is why they are not calling each other out. Why is Joshua not so vocal in calling out any of these three heavyweights? Wilder himself answered this when he said, “Kings don’t go around chasing peasants”.

Mythical matchups:

Lennox Lewis v Riddick Bowe

Canelo Alvarez v Terry Norris

Michael Spinks v Evander Holyfield (cruiserweight)

David Tua v Ron Lyle

Regards. – Jeremy, UK

Thank for finally penning something for the mailbag, Jeremy. 

Your mythical machups: I’ll go with Lewis by mid-to-late KO in a heavyweight shootout for the age

Canelo by mid-round KO (as much as I hate to write this because the fragile chinned Norris is one of my all-time faves)

Holyfield by close but clear UD

And Tua by late TKO in a wildly competitive fight in which Lyle gets up from numerous knockdowns and takes it to the Samoan hero

I agree that the three other claimants to the heavyweight crown all need Joshua more than he needs them, however, AJ would be the first to acknowledge that he needs worthy challenges in order to continue developing and to live up to his considerable potential.

Sadly, Fury – who possess the ability to outpoint all three beltholders on a good night – is more entertaining as a retired social media personality than he was as an actual contender/champion. Until he gets his license back and actually gets into the ring, he’s a non-entity as far as AJ and the other two titleholders are concerned.

Parker, in my opinion, needs to notch an impressive victory against a significant opponent before he tosses his hat into the Joshua sweepstakes. Majority decisions against Andy Ruiz and Hughie Fury aren’t enough for a heavyweight beltholder to consider himself a “world beater.”

Wilder has the best case among Joshua’s potential rivals. He talks the talk and he walks the walk (even though the best name on his resume is still Bermane Stiverne, who is a total headcase). But the American WBC titleholder has to realize that he’s not in AJ’s league when it comes to ticket sales and U.K. fame. And, despite only competing in half the number of prize fights, Joshua is the more accomplished of the two having won two world titles and grabbing the scalp of a future hall of famer in a huge event/strong fight of the year candidate.

The sooner Wilder admits his position in this matchup the sooner their teams can put together the biggest and most significant heavyweight title bout since Holyfield-Lewis I.

 

TONEY VS. TARVER

Dr. Doug,

Who did better, Toney as Frazier in Ali or Tarver in Rocky Balboa?

Anyway… how do you think those two would have squared up at HW in 2003/4 (probably a peak for both at that weight?)

Would have been an interesting match-up, I think. Wonder why it never happened. – Giuseppe

I thought Tarver did a better acting job than Toney (who did alright), but I would favor the 2003 version of Toney (190-pound cruiserweight or heavyweight) to outpoint the best heavyweight version of Tarver.

Why didn’t this fight happen? Well, for starters nobody ever asked for it, but beyond the lack of demand, Tarver was at his apex as a light heavyweight during Toney’s best heavyweight years (2003-’04). This is the time when he was chasing down (and eventually fighting and beating) Roy Jones Jr.

 

Email Fischer at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at @dougiefischer

  • Tony Nightstick

    “Do I believe that we’re witnessing the second coming of Barney Ross? Uh, hell-to-the-no.” Good one.

  • Pit bull

    No way lewis kos bowe, bowes jab was as good, bowes power was as good as the britts,, it would come down to the chin, bowes granite v lewis crystal. Bowe smashes that crystal.!

    • Triple C

      shame bowe bottled the fight then!

      • Pit bull

        He didn’t bottle it. His ptomoter was moron who did it. Bowe would never give up something he worked so hard for. His promoter had some plan to drag it out to make it bigger.

        • Orca

          If Bowe wanted the fight, I mean really wanted it, he would have got it.

          • Pit bull

            Blame his promoter

          • Orca

            No. Can’t do it. It was truly embarassing for Bowe to avoid Lewis like that. It was supposed to be Bowe Holyfield for the belt and Lewis Ruddock for the next challenger. If Lennox had Newman as his manager, he woulda forced that fight.

          • Pit bull

            It was more embarrassing watching lewis get koed twice in his prime, never seen that before by the other good hwts

          • TNT

            Not as embarrassing as having seen a guy duck another. That was pathetic.

          • Pit bull

            This is boring now. I already explained bowe didn’t throw away the belt his promoter did

          • TNT

            Bowe admitted to throwing it himself. He physically threw it in the can. You gonna say that the man himself is lying?

          • Pit bull

            His promoter had him do it. You’re getting boring

          • TNT

            Yes, Bowe admits that his promoter suggested this to him. And Bowe did it–no body forced him to do so. Bowe did it–this was a duck. Sorry to hurt your feelings.

          • Pit bull

            Feelings ?

          • Orca
          • Triple C

            maybe come up with some new and more convincing arguments then?

          • Pit bull

            If you can’t handle facts there’s not much I can do

          • Triple C

            You’re getting confused between opinions and facts. There is no disputing that Bowe threw the belt in the bin so as to avoid fighting Lewis – that is a “fact”, but in your “opinion” Bowe had zero responsibility or accountability for this action, I disagree, as I believe fighters should have at least some accountability for who they do or in this case don’t fight

          • Orca

            Nothing embarrassing about those two shots. Bu yeah, Lennox has no-one to blame but himself for those two defeats. Lazy, arrogant, complacent….but still a great heavyweight.

          • Pit bull

            Not knocking Lewis . He was part of one of the great eras in hwt

          • Orca

            Yeah, it was an amazing era. I remember some didn’t feel like that at the time. It was only after the WKlit era began that people started really talking fondly of the 90’s era. Some solid fighters and memorable fights.

          • Triple C

            I blame the fighter, the promoter works for the fighter

          • Pit bull

            You would blame the fighter. There was also the fact lewis was koed twice which didn’t impress the yanks, there was big money with holyfeild and galota, then bowes break down and joining the Marines, it’s just a fight that wasn’t meant to be. Not the first and not the last

          • Triple C

            Get your facts straight, the KOs were yet to occur, unless yanks can miraculously see into the future!. the fight was mandated and Bowe literally threw the belt in the bin rather than face Lewis!

            Make as many excuses as you want, but there is only one person to blame for a fight that should have happened not happening. Would love to know your criteria for a duck if this wasn’t one!!

          • Pit bull

            I’ve explained it

          • Andy T

            Not really 🤔 So if he asked him to jump of a cliff 😂😂😂

    • TNT

      As amateurs LL stopped your granite chinned R.B. The very same R.B. who was knocked down and hurt by Evander H. R.B. threw his belt in the trash to avoid facing L.L.

      • Pit bull

        Don’t use amatuer to judge what would happen at professional level.. Bowe beat holyfeild twice, something lewis didn’t do. Bowe didn’t throw away the belt his promoter did… By the way, holyfeild also knocked down mercer, only one to do that, in heavyweights any one can get hurt

        • Triple C

          Lewis beat him twice, bar some awful judging

        • TNT

          Bowe admits to throwing the belt in the garbage can:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05umZBgg-2k

          He goes from claiming that LL couldn’t beat him and ducked him to admitting to throwing the belt in the garbage.

          Why?

          Here’s the answer:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K39AbwNl3QU

          Notice how the sycophant American broadcast team call this bout.

          Lewis would have owned Bowe, but we will never know for sure because Bowe ducked Lewis.

          • Pit bull

            I’ve got some swamp land for sale

          • TNT

            Holyfield speaking truth to Bowe: “He wouldn’t fight Lennox Lewis” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g3WhaM_Kn4

          • Pit bull

            I’m not listening to another boxer speak for bowe. Boxer’s hold grudges for a lifetime, you may as well ask frazier about ali

          • TNT

            You are listening to E.H. say to Bowe’s face that he didn’t want to fight L.L. He even acted out an interaction between Bowe and LL and Bowe was quiet.

          • Pit bull

            As above

    • Orca

      It’s a load of bull that Lewis’s chin was crystal. Come on. Amir Khan has a terrible chin, Lewis was average. Lewis was a complex fighter and had trouble maintaining focus. He could be arrogant and that would breed laziness. That was as much of a factor in his defeats as his chin was. His chin, whilst not great by any means, was good enough.

      As for Bowe, I pick Bowe, with great terpidation, to beat Lennox before Manny got hold of him but I have no hesitation in Picking Lennox from ’97 to beat Bowe. I also have to qualify my Bowe win prediction by saying that it would have to have been the Bowe from the first Holyfield fight only. Bowe was the heavyweight version of Toney for a lot of his career. Shoulda kept his hand outta the cookie jar.

      • Pit bull

        Crystal is just a figure of speech, relax. Let’s just say bowes chin is the proven better chin, and that would be the difference in a fight between these two big hitters

      • ceylon mooney

        still dont think khan has a terrible chin. never seen evidence of that. ive seen him get tagged flush with KO shots.

        • David Telfer

          His chin didn’t hold up against Prescott or Garcia…and he got dropped by Diaz as well.

          • ceylon mooney

            like i said, those were KO shots not glancing blows. he got pummeled. prescott catch anyone like that they go down. of course he went down. like the alvarez shot. holy crap. thats not a glass chin thats a sledghammer blow. alvarez catch anyone other than golovkin like that its lights out.

            cant remember the diaz knockdown. but he got wobbled by chino, who knocked down broner a coupla times.

        • Andy T

          Khan (Chumbawamba I fall down but I get up again) has not got a glass chin LMAO

          • ceylon mooney

            yeah just like foreman, stiverne, szpilka, pacquiao or anyone who gets KOd by flush KO shots

          • Andy T

            Come on Ceylon he gets wobbled every fight which is why he is exciting to watch.

    • wow

      No way Lewis KO’s Bowe? Except when he did in the Olympics which is why Bowe ducked him as a pro. If Lewis knocked him out with headgear on, it’s safe to say that he could have duplicated the KO without it.

      • Pit bull

        What about McCall and Rahman . Also don’t use the armatures when comparing professionals

        • David Telfer

          I think the point is that you said no way Lewis could KO Bowe…even though he already has.

      • Wade Wilson

        The stoppage was after two standing eight counts and viewed as a bad call by many. However, Bowe didn’t seem into it and many questioned if he had the mental tools to make it as a pro. Headgear doesn’t really prevent knockouts, its main purpose is to prevent cuts and swellings.

  • Lion king

    Bowe, not just ducked Lewis but the best heavys hes only worthy win was vs Holyfield.

    • Orca

      Yeah, it’s crazy that he didn’t manage to end up in the ring with Mercer, Moorer, Foreman, Morrison, Ruddock, Lewis at some point. His career was very short though.

      • Julio

        His indiscipline as a fighter, and perhaps the lack of good management of his career.

        • Orca

          Yeah, A great waste. When he first came on the scene, beating Holyfield, doing his impressions shtick and all that…..I thought this guy is going to be huge. He seemed to have it all.

        • Wade Wilson

          I don’t think it was Bowe himself or Futch who were overly concerned about Lewis. I think Rock Newman got into Bowe’s head saying that the WBC couldn’t push him around. As for me I didn’t think that the Lewis fight had to be the next one, just the one after a gimme.

          • Julio

            Rock Newman in my opinion aided in derailing his career. I am think that if Bowe had a better managerial team, his career might have been a tad more substantial.

          • Wade Wilson

            I can’t argue that one at all!

      • Wade Wilson

        Some fighters are like that. He was more than simply undisciplined, he lost his marbles and went to pieces!

    • Julio

      Which is a shame because Bowe had all the tools to beat Lewis.

      • ceylon mooney

        hate they never fought. so stupid.

      • Joseph Ragusa

        All the tools? If those tools were at a higher level maybe. But those tools would have been overcome by Lennox’s tools.

        • Julio

          Not sure about that. The Lennox of the early 90’s hadn’t completely peaked by the time this fight was talked about. Lennox became the total package by the end of the decade. I would have favored the versions that fought Holyfield by 1993-94 when that fight should have happened.

    • Juan Manuel Valverde

      I think Bowe at his best would’ve been a tough out for anybody in history.

      • Pit bull

        Good call. 100% agree

      • Triple C

        I don’t think he fought enough top class heavyweights to make that assertion, bar Holyfield, who did he really fight? Dokes and Golota at a stretch?!?

        • Wade Wilson

          You may not think much of them in hindsight but Herbie Hide and Jorge Luis Gonzalez were regarded as good fighters at the time.

          • Triple C

            true, but I’m speaking from a hindsight perspective, neither turned out to be HOF career building opponents IMO

          • Wade Wilson

            Maybe, but if you look back at it most of the guys that Ali beat weren’t either and that was the division’s best era. Go to the heavyweight greats from other eras and many only have a few wins against such names.

          • Joseph Ragusa

            Ali fought a lot so he fought the very best AND others who weren’t so great.

          • Wade Wilson

            Ali fought, at an average, about 3.5 times a year so it was more than today’s heavyweights but not that much more. His final record was 56-5.

        • Teddy Reynoso

          In a sense, Bowe was more like Leon Spinks in the 70s who was good enuf to kayo Bernardo Mercado who just kayoed Ernie Shavers and upset the great though out of shape Muhammad Ali but just did not have the motivation or the ability, or both to push himself against the other top heavyweights of his era. In contrast though, Leon was an Olympic gold winner in the light heavyweight and was physically small for a heavyweight in the pros.

          • Teddy Reynoso

            I held his contemporary Ray Mercer more in esteem as Merciless Ray did more and we could say over achieved given his limited abilities in the pros.

      • Teddy Reynoso

        Physically yes but mentally I doubt it. After I saw him virtually quit against Lewis in their Olympic finals, I don’t really expect much from him when he turned pro. Even after his surprising upset of Holyfield in their first fight did not convince me that he has got it. He quit again a potential rematch versus Lennox preferring to dump his WBC belt in a trash.bin than fight him in a mandatory.

      • Joseph Ragusa

        Didn’t Bowe threw a belt in the garbage to avoid having to fight Lewis? He had enough of Lennox in the Olympics I think. Lewis would have destroyed Bowe, If Golota’s jab landed consistently on Bowe in both their crazy fights, I think Lewis’ jab would have done so even more..

  • Giuseppe

    Thanks Doug! Follow up MM:

    Tua vs Wilder
    Tua vs Joshua

    • Left Hook2

      Great matchups…. I think prime Tua could beat either of them. Right now I go with Tua over Wilder, Joshua over Tua.

    • D. Gambino

      I’m on the fence on this one. Obviously Tua’s chin was made of granite BUT he could be out boxed. Plus not’s not forget that Tua was only 5’10 with shoes on and going against Wilder and Joshua who are both at least 6’6 would be difficult.

      I’d take Wilder and Joshua over Tua as both men would keep Tua at distance with long jabs and tie him up whenever he got close.

  • Giuseppe

    charlo v ggg is a great fight and one to sweat over for ggg fans (of which i am one) i think.

    • Stephen M

      I’d be sweating a lot. Not sure Gennady wins that one. He’ll get hit on the chin for sure

    • Will Arbuckle

      I think Charlo would be an easier fight for triple then Canelo, he runs less

      • chickenstock

        Seems to punch harder tho

    • ceylon mooney

      so sick of the bullshit that goes along with alvarez. so over the rigged judging. give us charlo-golovkin.

    • David Telfer

      Charlo is a typical bully-type, once he starts eating leather from someone who can take it as well (GGG), he’ll fold.

      • Giuseppe

        remains to be seen.

  • Jorge

    Big Baby Miller needs some work, he looks like he is still trying to find his style in the ring. He is the kind of fighter that needs to keep active and fighting.

    • D. Gambino

      I think he’s as good as we’re going to see Jorge. I don’t know what else Miller can do to impress us. I don’t get the sense he has a lot of power PLUS it doesn’t seem like he sits on his punches all that well.

      Wach might be a bad opponent to gauge Miller against because Wach is as tough as they come with a chin to match. I agree that Miller needs a couple more fights but, sadly, Miller’s performance on Saturday might enough to get him in with Joshua when he’s clearly not ready for it.

      • Jorge

        I don’t like that he doesn’t throw fluid combinations. Like he hold with one arm.

        • D. Gambino

          I agree. I remember he threw a couple nice hooks in the 2nd round that KO’d some air but that was the last of that.

          The rest of his punches are all arm punches. I’m sure he has SOME power in those arms but when he fight’s guys with good chins, like Wach, he’s in for the long haul. Lucky for Miler, Wach is a shade of his former self.

    • Teddy Reynoso

      The positive on Miller is that I think he is more like Ray Mercer in attitude but the negative is that he may be like Riddick Bowe when it comes to training and discipline in getting in shape. Is that good or bad?

  • Juan Manuel Valverde

    Heavyweight discussion is back on the table which tells us how healthy the division is, and you know that when the heavyweights are thriving the sport does to. I like Joshua, I also like Wilder, I think Parker and Fury need to step to the back seat while these two settle the score. For Fury, he needs to figure out if he’s mentally fit to fight again (we know that physically he isn’t anywhere close to being in fighting shape). Parker on the other hand needs to show us a little more before calling out the big gunners.

    • David Telfer

      Let’s be honest…there are 5 heavyweights worth talking about (max). AJ, Wilder, Fury then I suppose Parker and Povetkin…even at that, does anyone really care about the last 2?

      The rest are bums who these guys would beat with relative ease.

  • TNT
    • Charlie U.

      Cool video, good post! That fight is like a Christmas present for us hardcores…or an apology for 2016. Lol.

      • ceylon mooney

        im rootin for rigo. cant pick a winner, dont think its lifely, but im rootin for rigo.

        • Charlie U.

          I am fan of both but it would be fun to see an upset. Unless he’s completely outclassed, which is unlikely, Rigo almost has nothing to lose and so much to gain.

          • ceylon mooney

            he aint outclased no way. i just cant see that happenin. he might could get outhustled tho.

            his first worthy opponent since donaire, and donaire dont have half a what lomachenko does.

            FINALLY…it takes a guy 2 (really 3) weight classes above him to voluntarily take the challenge. what an obnoxious practice in this business of boxing.

            but all that wasted time. all this time he coulda become a mandatory at 126 or tore his way thru 118, where those japanese fighters are into fighting other top guys regardless of how god theyll look.

            anyway hes here now IT JUST TOOK TOO DAMN LONG

          • Charlie U.

            It’s boxing…I’m happy it’s happening at all. Lol.

          • ceylon mooney

            yeah man i gotta keep it in perspective

          • Charlie U.

            Exactly. You get old being a boxing fan. Just the way it is, unfortunately.

        • Tudor Pascanu

          Many boxing people view him as the best boxer in the world by far (with a skill level and sense of the ring well above Mayweather’s). Ad to that his somewhat tragic story (having to leave his family in Cuba) and the tone of sh…t poured on his head by various “boxing experts” which had profound consequences on his marketability-what’s not to root for? I pray that this wil be “Rigo time” at last!
          Check out Charles Farrell piece on Rigo- “The greatest boxer alive is too god for his sport”

          • ceylon mooney

            hes one of my top 5 and has been for ages, and hes been screwed plenty by the biz, his own people, but he must bear some responsibility for the state of his career. if hed fight people could see him fight. if hed fight great people can see him fight great. with everyone turnin tail and refusing to mention his name at 122 couldnt he have gone to 118 and torn thru the ranks there? dunno about the current top guys outta the UL yamanaka, warren, tete, payano and a buncha others would fight him.

    • TMT NYC-DA REAL GHOSTBUSTERS

      Why was he making like he’s a helicopter?

      And all that tumbling is great but this is boxing, not gymnastics. Haha!

      • TNT

        You never know, the helicopter technique might just do the trick. And the tumbling will help too! imagine you get knocked down but instead of laying down then getting up sloppily you automatically tumble around then jump up like nothing happened! lmfao

    • Tudor Pascanu
      • TNT

        Thanks!

  • Left Hook2

    Poor matchmaking for the most part this weekend—Arias, Wach, Koeller–all in there to survive. Koeller’s performance makes me want to apologize for ever calling Mayweather a ‘runner’. Arias should have been penalized and eventually DQ’d for all of that holding, but gutless referees do not do their job.
    Jose Ramirez? Love the guy, the crowd was incredible. Not even a champ and draws 13K to a bout. I hope he can rise to the top and stay there.

    • Dee Money

      I was shocked Arias didn’t lose a point for holding. I think this weekend showed us that if all someone wanted to do was not get knocked out, and the ref gives them leeway, most pros could make it 12.

  • learnmore

    Its hard to assess the MIller v Wach, with Wach sustaining a damage/broken hand early on. A good W on the resume TKO9 comparing to Klitschko & Povetkin wins over Wach. But I think Wach is out of his prime and I’m quite certain if the doctor did not stop the fight. It would of went the distance, I would like to see him in with other contenders like Kabayel, Whyte, Ruiz jr before a Joshua fight.

  • learnmore

    Congrats to Seldin but I think he beat a boxer with a padded record, Eddie should throw Ohara Davies in there with Seldin. I would watch that

  • learnmore

    Luis Arias took his opportunity but it was obvious he was not ready for that big step from beating another prospect Magomedev to Jacobs. Problem Arias has, he is with Roc Nation who are awful promoters. Do they even do RNS boxing shows now Ward & Cotto are not with them anymore. Arias just need to build again a few wins, then a top 20 Middleweight before trying again vs a top 10 Middlewight.

  • learnmore

    With a dominant force like Crawford leaving the division & prospects coming through. It makes the 140lb division interesting to see who will take over the mantel. Will it be a prospect/contender in Lipinets,Ramirez, Taylor, Prograis,Imam, Saucedo or one of Crawford;s victims Postol, Felix Diaz, Indongo or someone else like Barthelemy, Orozco. Hopefully Adrian Granados starts thinking about winning a title & return to 140lb where he has a better shot than at 147lb

  • Don Badowski

    Max Kellerman was refreshingly honest in calling Big Baby fat. Not “out of shape” or overweight, just plain old Fat, and damn the PC police and their calling out on Fat Shaming.
    It is a damn shame that Golovkin is stuck waiting on DLH to decide on the rematch. One day he’s insisting its on. The next he’s saying we have to look at options. And he has that rematch clause, keeping Golovkin on the hook, and keeping us from seeing a him fight Charlo or some other contender.
    As for Daniel, I think HBO has to be really disappointed from his performance on Saturday. They signed him to a multi-fight deal, obviously looked to match him against either Golovkin or Alvarez in the near future for a PPV event, and he turns in this snoozer against Arias. Just not the way to get the fans excited.

    • Ciscostudent561

      lol GGG dont wanna fight Charlo

      • Dee Money

        To be fair, nobody really wants Charlo.

        I’d still favor GGG over him right now, but there aren’t too many grains left in that hourglass.

        • Charlie U.

          I think a big part of the reason that no one wants Charlo is because he hasn’t beaten anyone significant in the division. Charlo is high risk, somewhat low reward at this point.

          • ceylon mooney

            for golovkin who is hi reward?

          • Charlie U.

            Probably whoever has that last belt after BJS and Lemieux scrap. Or maybe a rematch with Jacobs that has a more definitive ending

          • ceylon mooney

            hmn. yeah. im so interested on his upcoming mandatories, and i forgto about BJS a coupla years back back when he admitted he wasnt ready for golovkin. that jacobs fight was awful close. wouldnt mind seein a rematch, and i think hes owed one. if jacobs had turned on earlier he mighta earned a draw. funny that knock down seemed to wake him up.

      • learnmore

        Charlo was having problems with Jrock before the TKO. It was 2-2 min, if not 3-1 to Jrock , Jrock winning the 5th before the TKO happened in the 5th, then he beat an one legged Heiland. Trout won 4 or 5 rounds vs Charlo some people thought it was closer. I want to see him fight a few more middleweights before I make a judgement on Charlo. GGG’s team is doing the exact same has every other fighter who reached the top & went through where Charlo is right now. “He dont deserve a shot”, he aint done f**k all in the middleweight division. And it is true, he has not. The WBC have ordered for Charlo to fight for the interim WBC title so in time he will get a shot at the WBC title in 2019 when GGG v Canelo finish their trilogy

        • Ciscostudent561

          The “he was struggling” until he got knocked out comment is ridiculously silly in the boxing context, especially when he already had one KD against Jrock- who is a pretty good talent himself. Anyway I agree with you- fact remains GGG dont wanna fight Charlo. name your reason, high risk, low reward, needs to pay his dues, blatant duck, whatever idk, idc we just know thats not a fight they’re looking to make.

          • learnmore

            If I wrote “he was struggling” I would see your point but I wrote “he ws having problems with Jrock” & the cards were probably close when he got the TKO. Golovkin does want to fight Charlo, Steve Kim & Dougie done an interview with him recently & Kim has tweeted that Charlo is on the list if GGG dont get the Canelo fight. Abel Sanchez has said Charlo has not done enough to deserve a shot. The fighter & trainer have different views

          • Left Hook2

            Plus….’it’s not his turn’….GGG pretty much has to do the rematch with Canelo (and who can blame him). That leaves him one more fight next year—who’s turn would it be? Assuming GGG beats Canelo (on the cards as well), he is the alpha-male at MW. Who ‘should’ he take next? Winner of BJS-Lemiuex for the last useless belt? Up-and-coming Charlo? A mandatory not named Charlo (Deravyanchenko is no gimme).? Murata for a huge bout in Japan? Andrade? Jacobs rematch? No matter who he fights, he will be ‘ducking’ 6 other guys.

          • learnmore

            I dont know, Loeffler is saying that its Canelo holding it up. He wants more than the last deal. I agree if it aint Canelo the main options for GGG are Charlo, Murata, Derevyanchenko,Jacobs because Canelo will fight BJS/Lemieux if the GGG deal is not made.

          • Left Hook2

            Of the non-Canelo options, I think the one that makes the most sense for GGG is Murata. Probably a good deal of money fighting in front of the Japanese crowd, and he would probably be the easiest task.

          • chickenstock

            In terms of difficulty of challenge (and thus intrigue of fight, for me) I would rank them like this: Jacobs, Charlo murata, bjs.

          • Left Hook2

            Respectable. My perspective is Jacobs is last. He had his chance and chose to dance around. Screw him. Charlo, Murata, Deravyanchenko–I think those all make very fan-friendly fights. Charlo the least of the 3 but probably the most respected name.

          • Ciscostudent561

            ur crazy, ggg jacobs was an exciting match, with Jacobs landing a flurry of combos and sliding in and out to frustrate GGG. u funnny bro
            ya dudes be like
            ‘jacobs ran’
            -how did he execute combos?
            ‘none of those punches landed’
            -so you’re admitting JAcobs initiated action?
            ‘no jacobs ran’

            hahahah ok

          • Left Hook2

            It takes two to tango and Jacobs was an unwilling dance partner. It was not an exciting match..it was only tense in that we as fans felt that at any moment something could happen with the firepower they seemed to bring. Jacobs was not sticking and moving…he was moving..almost exclusively backward. I didn’t expect shoulder-to-shoulder warfare, but Danny avoided the pocket like it would cause an infections. So no, bro… he can go to the back of the line. Mr. D, Charlo, Murato would all make for more entertaining (and re-watchable) bouts. IMHO.

          • Ciscostudent561

            I agree that those other matches are potentially more entertaining- still that doesn’t negate ggg jacobs been a fun affair, in which Jacobs did not run. lol.

          • Left Hook2

            I’m about being entertained. Plus…Jacobs didn’t give cause for a rematch. he didn’t try to take it to GGG…he tried to skirt around to get a decision. This isn’t figure skating…go out there and kick some a$$. Jacobs just wasn’t into it. I don’t think Canelo-GGG is rematch worthy, except GGG got screwed on the cards.

          • Andy T

            Who pays the most on the list BJS in the UK or will he earn more staying in America.
            Fight fans in the UK would love him fighting Billy with the right undercard it could fill a stadium

          • learnmore

            The fact that BJS is having his defence in Canada tells you everything what BJS earns in the UK. If its Canelo & GGG, BJS will make more money in the USA. Jacobs v BJS is a difficult one both dont sell in their countries

          • Teddy Reynoso

            Fighters seeking knockouts or decisive wins usually “struggle” to get it especially against stick and movers or tougher than expected opponents. So I don’t see that as a minus in the case of Charlo. In fact that serves to show his grit and determination and his ability to adapt and adjust to achieve his goal. Those will serve him well against the likes of Jacobs and GGG but not necessarily against the more versatile and ring wise Canelo.

          • learnmore

            Lee & Korobov are possibilites because they’re are on the WBC top 15 ratings. And Charlo has to face the highest rated opponent who accepts the fight for the interim WBC title. 1.Charlo 2.Canelo 3.Jacobs 4.Centeno jr 5.Lee 6. Arias 7 Korobov 8. Andrade. I cant see one of these not accepting the fight, its probably going to be Centeno jr or Lee. Give both a chance if they win to get a shot at the WBC title. I think Canelo & Jacobs will pass because they’re already in position being on HBO for fights for the title vs GGG/BJS/Lemieux.

          • Teddy Reynoso

            I would prefer Lee. I like his attitude and perseverance. He would definitely test Charlo. I don’t know Centeno Jr.

          • learnmore

            I just checked on the PBC site & all 3 official judges had it 2-2 so the judges was watching same fight I was. The knockdown had Charlo in front going into the 5th, which IMO, Jrock was winning until the TKO.

          • Stephen M

            I like Charlo but I think it is much too soon to talk about ducking. Charlo just got to the middleweight division. One could just as easily say that Charlo stayed at Junior middleweight to avoid fighting Golovkin… A while ago Golovkin was looking for opponents, now not so much. Maybe bad timing by Charlo, maybe not. We’ll see.

          • Ciscostudent561

            I’m not sayin GGG is ducking, im just saying GGG doesnt want to fight him now, Also Charlo called out GGG Jacobs and Canelo before GGG started fighting them so I dont think its cause GGG is looking weaker that he made the jump to 160. I think he made the jump because he’s better than his lil brother

          • Charlie U.

            I agree but I don’t think he went up because of his brother. He went up because he’s freaking huge.

          • chickenstock

            He hasn’t ignored him. He mentioned him as a contingency opponent if the canelo fight doesn’t happen.

    • Left Hook2

      HBO has some serious matchmaking issues. Arias–boring as hades. Alantez fox–boring as hades. I know they are limited on their budget now, but I would rather them give us one good matchup than offer up quantities of garbage. If I didn’t like Kovalev, I would probably drop my subscription. I won’t see GGG for months (prob on PPV), and how many of their bouts will be worth viewing in the near future?

      • Charlie U.

        Good question. After BJS-Lemieux, there’s not much on the horizon.

    • Charlie U.

      Don, I notice that you pretty regularly criticize black American fighters. I would have bet on you coming in here and attacking Jacobs and Miller. Why didn’t you mention that HBO was also showcasing a guy in Cletus Seldon who failed TWO drug tests this year?? Any commentary on that?

  • Jorge

    Hopefully Hearn becomes a good promoter here in the States. The venue for Saturday’s fight wasn’t a good one but he’ll learn about that stuff.

  • Jander78

    Can we talk about how badass Wach’s Conan the Barbarian back tattoo was? For a boring(ish) fight, at least there was some nice art to check out!

    • ceylon mooney

      the open steppe, a fleet horse…falcons at your wrist, and wind in your hair.

      WRONG!

      conan, what is best in life?

      • Koninbeor

        To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!

        • Stephen M

          Wow! You can quote Conan! I’m always stuck doing Nietzsche or something…

          • Koninbeor

            What can I say? Simple dreams for simple men.

          • Stephen M

            No, really, that was a great quote.

        • ceylon mooney

          MY MAN!

  • Charlie U.

    I know the emergence of the ‘Hebrew Hammer’ is a fun story but is no one going to mention that Cletus Seldon pissed hot not once but twice this year??!! That guy is as dirty as they come and I’m surprised that all these VADA warriors we usually have are silent on this.

    • philoe bedoe

      If he makes a name for himself and becomes a major player, they’ll be out in full force……….

  • ceylon mooney

    jeremy sure spelled laid out ot clear and dougs follow up was on point.

  • Chris Stans

    Something tells me Robert is a bit of a Canelo fan

    • Stephen M

      One thing is for sure: It isn’t Robert Archambault…

  • Teddy Reynoso

    Cletus has somewhat bring back memories of those great Jewish ring fighters of yore who fought with grit, determination, courage and power which we did not see in Yuri Foreman. Ortiz has just one other bad beating which came at the hands of then unstoppable Lucas Matthyse. Cletus may now be as good as Lucas then but is that enough for him to take on and beat the current standouts at 140?

  • Black Oracle

    I think King Autur Beiterbeiv is legit. Methodical, isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it can be a good thing in boxing. Methodical pretty much means he doesn’t go outside of how he was trained, and dude appears to be trained well……GGG is methodical as hell, and I don’t see Dougie complaining about that. Autur has good punch selection, he doesn’t leave much to chance, he’s strong, and he can crack…..Whats not to like? This dude wastes no energy, so if he is in their with a stick and mover, I can see that sticker and mover doing more moving than sticking and wearing himself out, and ultimately getting walked down and finished.

  • Arjay Cee

    Agree with Doug about the hw division: it ain’t so deep.

    Big Baby Miller is a work in progress — yes, some would say the “progress” is him merely mowing through more hamburgers, but let’s wait and see. It’s a complete toss up who’s tops in the second tier of the heavyweights beneath Wilder and Joshua.

    My guess is it won’t be the plodding Parker or the sloppy Whyte or the risk-averse Hughie Fury. Maybe Luis Ortiz has a third act left in him. Maybe it’s one of the eastern European juggernauts at light hw who’s threatened to move up.

    Just maybe Tyson Fury can un-fuck himself and return. Stranger things have happened following mental meltdowns. Ike Ibeabuchi, against all odds, briefly returned to be a terror in the ring once more, allegedly scaring HBO into putting him back on TV by slamming a knife into the table over dinner negotiations. (A sign, as if one were needed, that his true talents for terror lay elsewhere.)