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Dougie’s Friday mailbag

11
Aug

THIS AND THAT

Doug hi,

Jermell Charlo vs. Erickson Lubin was just announced. Seems early for Lubin, but he’s clearly special and they must be confident to put him in with Charlo. I love the match & only say “early” in the context of how fighters often wait nowadays before taking substantial risks. How does Lubin go about winning this fight? I see Charlo taking it, but with the nagging feeling that Lubin might be packing some surprises.

It’s become hard by now to imagine Terence Crawford losing, period. But Julius Indongo’s been nothing but full of surprises and his size and athleticism will give Crawford some things to think about. Which of course is what Crawford does best. How do you see this going? Does Crawford suss him out and find his (pretty well hidden) weaknesses? Indongo seems like he has the potential to make Cawford work a lot harder than he likes to, and if so, can he pull him into “deep water” late in the fight and have a shot at all the titles?

Ricky Burns and Anthony Crolla — I’d have called it an even fight at 140 pounds or somewhere in between. Given Crolla’s work rate, and Burns having to drop down 5 pounds at his age, Crolla seems likely to have this one. It’s hard not to root for both of these guys, and I hope they’re getting really good money for the match. But Burns seems maybe closer to the end of the road and at 135 this looks to be uphill for him. How do you see this going?

And, going out on a limb here: I know Canelo Alvarez is mighty. But I think at least a couple of Gennady Golovkin’s victims would trouble him some (David Lemieux, Willie Monroe Jr.), and it’s hard to see Danny Jacobs losing to him. While Jacobs troubled Golovkin, it wasn’t a razor-thin decision (btw Jacobs should stop whining, it’s unseemly). Factor that in with the closeness of some of Canelo’s decisions (Austin Trout, Erislandy Lara, Miguel Cotto), and often rather indifferent/past prime opponents, and I just can’t come to any logical conclusion but Golovkin kicking his ass. Golovkin’s “exposure” against Kell Brook is wishful thinking.

His boxing talents are underrated b/c he’s happy to brawl when that’s all he needs to do. But consistently, he’s done whatever needed to win, with a pleasing penchant for “big drama”, but proving with Jacobs, and for awhile with Lemieux, that he can be disciplined and reign it in too. Canelo has the speed to hit him but will eat shots in return.  I bet that won’t wear well… I’m calling for a beat down somewhere between rounds 9-11. There. Come 9/16 I’ll happily eat crow if that’s what’s served. Thanks again for the mailbag! – Alec

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on all of these interesting upcoming matchups, Alec, but I wouldn’t call picking GGG to beat Canelo “going out on a limb.” That’s called “going with the chalk.” Golovkin is the odds-makers favorites. He’s the overwhelming pick among boxing writers, industry insiders and pundits. He’s the higher regarded middleweight. Most observers believe he’s the better 160 pounder, and most say he’s more proven at the weight.

I think at least a couple of Gennady Golovkin’s victims would trouble him some (David Lemieux, Willie Monroe Jr.), and it’s hard to see Danny Jacobs losing to him. I agree. I would pick Jacobs to beat Canelo. I would favor Canelo to beat Lemieux and Monroe but I think both middleweight standouts would have their moments against the Mexican star. Lemmy would dish out his share of punishment and The Mongoose would do his share of frustrating with his speed and movement.

Btw Jacobs should stop whining, it’s unseemly. I don’t think Jacobs is “whining,” it looks to me like he’s been celebrating his performance. He’s been on an extended “moral victory” lap since March and seems to be enjoying himself.

Factor that in with the closeness of some of Canelo’s decisions (Austin Trout, Erislandy Lara, Miguel Cotto), and often rather indifferent/past prime opponents, and I just can’t come to any logical conclusion but Golovkin kicking his ass. That may very well be the eventual outcome of this fight, but I think Canelo is going to do his share of ass kicking along the way. I’ve said it before and I’m going to keep saying it: GGG’s face was clean after 12 rounds with Jacobs; it’s gonna be lumped up after the Canelo fight. By the way, I thought the Lara fight was legitimately close and could have gone the Cuban’s way. The Trout and Cotto fights were competitive, in my opinion, but not all that close.

His boxing talents are underrated b/c he’s happy to brawl when that’s all he needs to do. That’s one reason why GGG’s boxing talents are underrated. Another reason is just good ole fashioned hatred.

But consistently, he’s done whatever needed to win, with a pleasing penchant for “big drama”, but proving with Jacobs, and for awhile with Lemieux, that he can be disciplined and reign it in too. Very true. I think that’s the version of Golovkin that we will see on Sept. 16.

Canelo has the speed to hit him but will eat shots in return. I think Canelo brings more than speed to this showdown. He’s got enough power to get GGG’s respect; I think he’s got enough to hurt the unified beltholder (Especially if he goes to the body. He also brings very good block-and-counter ability and head/upper-body movement.

I bet that won’t wear well… We will find out soon.

Jermell Charlo vs. Erickson Lubin was just announced. Well, sort of. The WBC mandatory is still looking for a date, venue and network, according to RingTV’s Mike Coppinger, but at least the two 154 pounders have agreed to get it on.

Seems early for Lubin, but he’s clearly special and they must be confident to put him in with Charlo. Lubin’s handlers are either confident or impatient or desperate; maybe they’re a mix of all three things. I agree that the former U.S. amateur standout is special (he was THE RING Prospect of the Year for 2016), but I don’t see why they need to rush him to this title bout. However, if they feel he’s ready, and if the WBC is going to mandate it anyway, they might as well go for it.

How does Lubin go about winning this fight? He’s a big, strong, southpaw boxer-puncher, so I think he needs to impose his size and power on the more experienced titleholder as soon as possible. If he allows Charlo to get into his boxing rhythm the Houston native might do more than outbox or outmaneuver him, the defending WBC beltholder might check his chin.

I see Charlo taking it, but with the nagging feeling that Lubin might be packing some surprises. Yeah, I see it the same way you do.

It’s become hard by now to imagine Terence Crawford losing, period. But Julius Indongo’s been nothing but full of surprises and his size and athleticism will give Crawford some things to think about. That’s what I think, at least during the first half of the bout. I think Indongo’s technique is also a factor in the competitiveness of this bout.

How do you see this going? Does Crawford suss him out and find his (pretty well hidden) weaknesses? Yeah, I think he will, but it might take more than two or three rounds. He might not begin the “break-down” phase of his game plan until the sixth or seventh round. I won’t be shocked at all if the fight goes the distance.

Indongo seems like he has the potential to make Crawford work a lot harder than he likes to, and if so, can he pull him into “deep water” late in the fight and have a shot at all the titles? I think Crawford will be the one doing the deep-water drowning late in the fight, but I agree that Indongo appears to have the ability to compete with the two-division RING champ.

Ricky Burns and Anthony Crolla — I’d have called it an even fight at 140 pounds or somewhere in between. I would have too – had this bout taken place early last year.

Given Crolla’s work rate, and Burns having to drop down 5 pounds at his age, Crolla seems likely to have this one. I give Crolla the slight edge, but not because of the weight or the Manchester native’s busy punch output. I like Crolla in this one because he’s the younger, fresher fighter. Both men are battle tested (and battle worn), but Crolla, who is 30, has been a pro since late 2006. Burns, who is 34 and has been in more wars than Crolla, has been a pro since late 2001. There’s more wear and tear on the Scotsman and I think that was evident during his one-sided loss to Indongo in April. Crolla’s coming off back-to-back losses to Jorge Linares but there’s no shame in being outpointed by the Venezuelan. I thought Crolla was competitive in the first bout, so even though he’s 2-2-1 in his last five bouts, I factor in that he’s been in with quality cats (Linares, Ismael Barroso and Darleys Perez – and I think he majority draw vs. Perez in their first bout could have gone his way).

It’s hard not to root for both of these guys, and I hope they’re getting really good money for the match. I think they’ll be well compensated and I know they’ll give their loyal fans their moneys worth. It’ll be a very good fight in a great atmosphere. If I lived in England, I’d attend because the Manchester and Glasgow fans will definitely raise the roof off the Manchester Arena. I’ve never met either fighter but both seem to be very nice, down-to-earth and classy men.

How do you see this going? Crolla by close, hard-fought decision.

 

SNORE-MACHENKO

Hey Doug,

Hope you are doing ok. I just watched the Vasyl Lomachenko vs Miguel Marriaga fight and I had a few questions pop into my mind during the broadcast.

The first thing was that they are certainly trying to sell us the Loma story and hype, almost as if Top Rank is trying to look for a Pacquiao replacement but sadly Loma fights aren’t as exciting as Pacquiao fights were. Do you know why that is?

My guess is competition which Loma may be seeing in the future, but so far competition has been weak. I laughed when Teddy Atlas said he had Loma as #1 on his P4P list above Andre Ward… how do you come to that conclusion? It’s insulting to his own intelligence, especially after Ward beat Sergey Kovalev for the second time. What has Loma done to warrant him being higher?

Also, they said Salido was offered $750k to fight tonight, I personally think that’s a low ball offer, he was right to decline it. It’s a very, very risky fight and Salido would almost surely lose, but it would still be a big fight and it would generate a lot of attention. He should’ve been offered more, Loma needs to be challenged.

Overall, I thought Loma gave an underwhelming performance, and it was not exciting or memorable. Is it because he doesn’t have KO punch power?

Lastly, do you think that Mikey Garcia gained more from his win or did Loma gain more from his Marriaga win? Who wins if they fought next.

Thanks for the bag Doug, it’s the only thing I read consistently and never miss. Keep up the amazing work. God Bless you. – Miguel from Fort Myers

Thanks for the very kind words, Miguel.

I think Garcia definitely gained more respect/stature from his victory over Adrien Broner than Lomachenko did by stopping Marriaga. Garcia stepped up in weight and outclassed a well-known fighter who was the underdog but was also viewed as “talented” and was given a shot to win (or at least be competitive) by some fans and media. Loma beat up on a solid contender, but also a relatively unknown fighter who was coming off a loss, was coming up in weight, and was given no chance of winning. 

I don’t really care to get into the silly pissing contest between Garcia’s and Loma’s fans. There’s no point to comprehensively analyze this potential fight until Lomachenko has announced that he’d leaving the lightweight division and there are some real talks between his reps and Mikey’s people. Until then, it’s just mental masturbation. (Plus, I’ve already given my thoughts on who might win if the two ever fought.)

Regarding Loma’s performance against Marriaga, I wasn’t thrilled or awed by it but I was impressed by the manner in which he took the tough, proud and capable Colombian’s will/heart. And I generally enjoy watching Loma fight.

The first thing was that they are certainly trying to sell us the Loma story and hype, almost as if Top Rank is trying to look for a Pacquiao replacement but sadly Loma fights aren’t as exciting as Pacquiao fights were. First, I don’t think there’s any “hype” to Loma’s story. He’s one of the greatest amateur boxers who made a successful transition to the pro ranks where he’s won world titles in two divisions and established himself as an elite fighter in record time. Second, very few fighters of this era can come anywhere near being as exciting as the prime Manny Pacquiao was, but of course Top Rank is going to try to pass the torch to Loma. They’re in need of a new star (and so is boxing).

Do you know why that is? Um, yeah, they’re PROMOTERS – it’s their job.

Vasyl Lomachenko lands a left cross en route to outpointing Gary Russell Jr. for the vacant WBO featherweight title. Photo / Naoki Fukuda

My guess is competition which Loma may be seeing in the future, but so far competition has been weak. Really? I think he’s challenged himself since turning pro in October 2013. He fought Orlando Salido and Gary Russell Jr. in his second and third pro bouts. He fought unbeaten Nicholas Walters late last year. That was a fight the hardcore heads were all hot and bothered with, and more than a few gave The Axeman a shot at winning. Don’t be mad at Loma because Walters quit. Be mad at Walters. (Or, better yet, recognize that he was outclassed and bewildered by a very special talent and have some damn compassion for him.)

I laughed when Teddy Atlas said he had Loma as #1 on his P4P list above Andre Ward… how do you come to that conclusion? Well, first of all, it’s Teddy’s list, he can put whoever he wants wherever he wants. It doesn’t have to make sense to anyone but him. (And, quite Frankly, it’s not worth getting worked up about. Let Teddy get worked up. He’s good at it.)

It’s insulting to his own intelligence, especially after Ward beat Sergey Kovalev for the second time. What has Loma done to warrant him being higher? Well, just to play devil’s advocate, Loma has faced almost as many world titleholders, five (Salido, Russell, Walters, Martinez and Sosa), as Ward (who’s faced six – Kovalev, Kessler, Froch, Dawson, Abraham and Bika) and he’s done so in one-fourth of the time and in about one-third the number of pro bouts. I shouldn’t have to remind you that Loma just fought his 10th pro bout. He hasn’t even been a pro for four years. Ward’s got 32 bouts and he’s been a pro for 12½ years. You know who Loma fought in his second and third pro bouts. Do you know who Ward fought in his? Do you think those guys come close to the standouts that Loma faced so early in his career? Maybe Teddy is rewarding Loma for taking risks.

Also, they said Salido was offered $750k to fight tonight, I personally think that’s a low ball offer, he was right to decline it. That was certainly Salido’s right. The man has more than paid his dues over the decades. But I can’t help but wonder if Siri or his team got a little greedy because of some of the other offers that were floating around at the time that Loma was looking for an ESPN dance partner (which includes Jorge Linares and Tank Davis). Maybe he thought he could have everyone bid against each other until he got a seven-figure offer, and more power to him if he had achieved that but Loma, Linares and Davis all got other opponents. Who’s left for Salido? Maybe he can still do the rematch with Francisco Vargas later in the year, but I don’t think there’s more than $700,000 for him with that return bout.

 

JMM AND MEXICO’S GREATEST

Hey Doug,

In honor of one my favorite boxers, Juan Manuel Marquez, retiring, in your honest opinion, where does he rank among the great Mexican boxers? In the top ten?

My most memorable moment of watching Marquez will always be the knockout of Pac-Man in their last fight. What a great fight. – Robbie Marquez

That seems to be the favorite of most JMM fans. It’s not mine. The Marquez-Pacquiao rivalry belonged under 147 pounds, and PacMan was mailing it to a degree by that point of his career in my opinion. Full credit to JMM, though, he always had the dynamic Filipino’s number, stylistically speaking, and he finally clipped his fellow future first-ballot hall of famer in his fourth try.

My favorite Marquez moment was when he won the WBC 130-pound title bout outpointing fellow Mexican great Marco Antonio Barrera in a brilliant 12-round boxing battle.

Marquez definitely makes my Mexican all-time top 10. He’s in there with his peers, Barrera and Erik Morales, and other badasses: Julio Cesar Chavez, Salvador Sanchez, Ruben Olivares, Carlos Zarate, Baby Arizmendi, Finito Lopez and Kid Azteca. (And, no, this is not in order… nor is it final… I ran this off the top of my head, but after close inspection of everyone’s records, I could conceivably bump a few for the excellent likes of Miguel Canto, Enrique Bolanos, Vicente Saldivar or even Chalky Wright – a hall-of-fame brotha who was born in Durango.) Viva Mexico!

 

JSK VS. THE SIBERIAN ROCKY

Hey Doug,

I really enjoyed watching Jesus Soto Karass and Mauricio Herrera get it on last week and like you I was pleasantly surprised by Jesus’ form and determination down the stretch; I thought Kamegai might’ve beaten all the fight out of him over the course of their two bouts. It got me thinking, I’d love to see Soto Karass take on the Siberian Rocky or even Bam Bam Rios in his next fight – either one of those match-ups would make for a really fun and furious 10 rounder.

What is your prediction for Crawford vs Indongo? It’s pretty hard to pick against Bud right now and to be honest I’d favor him against any fighter at welterweight or below. Like Loma, he’s a super technician with a sadistic streak, plus he’s got very solid power and great versatility. (Can stalk and hunt you down, stick and move, switch stances.) Then again, anyone who’s overlooked Indongo has suffered the consequences thus far, and who can forget that spectacular one-shot KO of that poor Russian fellow? – Jack

Eduard Troyanovsky would like to forget about it.

I favor Crawford by unanimous decision in a competitive fight, and I’m looking forward to watching the Aug. 19 showdown for all the marbles at 140 pounds.

Soto Karass vs. Provodnikov or Rios? Sign me up for some of that! I’d buy tickets to those fights. But, alas, I don’t see it happening due to boxing business/politics. Provo’s got a contract with Showtime, which does most of its business with the large PBC talent pool, and Rios is currently a PBC player who’s got eyes on a grudge match with fellow Garden City, Kansas standout Victor Ortiz.

I’ve seen Soto Karass around in recent days and he’s still at his fighting weight and in great spirits. He told me that he’s got a few more fights left and still has the desire to get into a top condition and to challenge himself. My guess is that he will serve as a gatekeeper for young Golden Boy Promotions prospects that are at the ESPN level, such as Rashidi Ellis, or against a sliding fringe contender like the winner of the Mike Perez-Pablo Cesar Cano fight that’s slated for Oct. 13 (that is, if the winner wants to step up from 140 to 147 – Cano can, I’m not sure about “The Artist”). Whoever JSK winds up fighting, I hope he’s welcomed back to ESPN.

 

RAY ARCEL

Hi Dougie,

I hope you are well.

I recently watched the movie Hands of Stone on Netflix. As a Roberto Duran fan I enjoyed it very much, did you? Boxing aside it was a good movie. My only criticism was that they tried to cover a very long time period of time and numerous topics in one movie. I would have preferred a deeper dive in to specific periods of Duran’s life and career. I thought it was some of De Niro’s best work in years. Ray Arcel is an amazing character to think he trained the great Benny Leonard, Barney Ross and was back in the late 70s with Duran all while dealing with the mob. I would love to read more about him. I saw two listings on Amazon, one by Donald Dewey and the other by John Jarrett.

Any recommendations on further reading or which of these two books is best. I would also love to hear some tidbits from you on Ray Arcel.

All the best, from the never satisfied boxing fan in Miami who is looking forward to GGG-Canelo. Regards. – Aaron

Arcel is a hall-of-fame trainer (inducted into the IBHOF in 1991) and regarded as one of the best of all time. The native of Terre Haute, Indiana, grew up in NYC, where he learned to train fighters by serving under Frank “Doc” Bagley and Dai Dolling at the legendary Stillman’s Gym. Arcel trained (at least) 20 world champions beginning in the early 1920s, including former flyweight champ Frankie Genaro (the first standout he developed), Jackie “Kid” Berg, Lou Brouillard and Sixto Escobar (all but Genaro he coached alongside Whitey Bimstein), and all four fighters are in the hall of fame (as is Bimstein). Arcel also worked with Barney Ross, the great Benny Leonard (during his ill-fated comeback), Jimmy Braddock, Tony Zale and Billy Soose (all HOFers); as well as Ceferino Garcia and Tony Marino.

He pissed off some organized crime figures who were involved in boxing during the 1950s while he was television matchmaker for ABC and wound up getting a lead pipe planted in his head. The violent incident, which occurred in 1953, prompted him to leave the sport for 20 years. He returned to train Panama’s Alfonzo “Peppermint” Frazer before beginning his eight-year association with Duran.

I haven’t seen Hands Of Stone. I’m always a bit skeptical of modern boxing movies, and I didn’t hear glowing reviews of the film when it came out, but if you really think Robert De Niro  delivered one of his best performances in it I’ll check it out.

As for book recommendations, you can’t go wrong with Corner Men: Great Boxing Trainers by Ronald K. Fried. It contains wonderful profiles on Arcel and many of his contemporaries, and it’s available at Amazon and Barnesandnoble.com.

 

MYTHICAL MARQUEZ-MATRIX MATCHUPS

Dougie, how’s it going?

One question…

Juan Manuel Marquez v Lomachenko at 126, 130, 135

Or maybe that’s 3 questions?

Anyway – who wins? Cheers. – Giuseppe

I think Loma would win a controversial, maybe majority or split decision at featherweight (where’s JMM’s reserved counter-punching style would bit him in the ass against the more athletic and mobile boxer, much as it did vs. Freddy Norwood and Chris John); Marquez would triumph via close decision at junior lightweight where he was more aggressive and active; and I guess I have to go with the Mexican master at lightweight (probably on points) because I’ve yet to see Loma do his thing above 130 pounds and Marquez was good enough at 135 to clip and stop the crafty, cagey (and dirty) Joel Casamayor.

 

Email Fischer at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at @dougiefischer

  • Tony Nightstick

    Bravo, Doug, for including Baby Arizmendi and the outrageously neglected Kid Azteca among your top 10 Mexican boxers. Also Miguel Canto, a truly great flyweight. But are you sure about Chalky Wright being born in Mexico? I think he was an Arizonan.

    By the way, don’t bother with “Hands of Stone,” one of the worst movies (not just boxing movies) I’ve ever seen.

    • Randall Bannister

      Couldn’t agree more with you review of “hands of stone”, absolute shocker of a movie but “Southpaw” was even worse. However, on the flip side, I really enjoyed “bleed for this”.

      • chickenstock

        ah, i have wanted to check bleed for this. i will now.

        • ceylon mooney

          its good. bi raging bull but good.

      • ceylon mooney

        bleed for this was pretty good

        creed was great

        • chickenstock

          creed 2 is apparently gonna have creed v drago’s son. sounds awful but usually as soon as i see stallone, i sort of forget all my critical faculties.

          • Dee Money

            I was gonna call BS on that comment, but apparently thats what the rumors are…uggghhh. Thats a shame because I enjoyed Creed, but it looks as if they are going down this route.

            Maybe Carl Weathers will come back as a ghost who gives his son a thumbs up after his victory (ala Happy Gilmore)

          • ceylon mooney

            that sounds SO stupid

            yea man stallones got real talent. dont judge him on rocky iv and death race 200o alone

          • philoe bedoe

            Paradise Alley was a film I liked of his when I was a kid…….

          • Ewan Leaper

            Watch too many Rocky films and you end up punch drunk, unable to process how preposterous they are and subsequently enabling you to enjoy them immensely…

        • Randall Bannister

          I think I’m in minority when it comes to Creed as it bored me to tears. It’s just too long. The fights scenes were really good but it should of been condensed into an hour and half, rather than the two and half hour snooze fest it turned in to.

          • ceylon mooney

            coulda shortened it a good bit

        • D Johnson

          I loved creed!

          • ceylon mooney

            me too. just watched it again last night

      • RayK

        Well De Niro definitely has been dialing it in for the last near two decades but it’s surprising that people think he even got this wrong. I don’t know anything of Arcel though.

      • Kiowhatta

        I second that opinion of the pick of recent boxing films. Southpaw was the worst, a terrible clichéd attempt at imitating the ‘Rocky’ formula, ‘Hands of stone’ was all over the place, and so forgettable I can’t remember what was wrong with it…

        But yes, ‘Bleed for this’ (about Vinny Paz) reminded me of the legendary ‘Fighter’ – starring Mark Wahlberg and Christian Bale – the thing that made it great besides the performances, was the toned down ‘riches to rags to riches’ genre – Aaron Eckhart is great as Kevin Rooney and so is the rest of the cast, with genuine tension and drama without the over the top ‘beating the world’ and becoming the best’ Ostentatious style of the other films.

        • Ewan Leaper

          Southpaw has one use and that’s testing how eagle-eyed you are by trying to spot any scene in the film where the main character uses a southpaw stance- tiny oversight…

    • Doob13Ashstray

      I spit out my coffee when I read “De Niros best work in years”. That movie was horrible and to be more honest, horribly acted. I should of known it would be with Usher as Sugar Ray.

      • D Johnson

        This had me rolling!

  • Conrad

    Ruslan Provodnikov’s career could have been very different if he got decisions against Herrera, Bradley and Algieri. Which he easily could have. One of my favourite fighters to watch, think he’s semi-retired by now though. Him vs JSK would be worth watching

    • wrecksracer

      Yeah, the ropes held Bradley up plenty in that Provo fight. Enough to call a couple more knockdowns.

      • Conrad

        Yeah, well he went down in the first and Pat Russell called it a slip, then went down in the 12th, so should’ve been 2 knock downs. Take nothing away from Bradley though, that was a great fight

        • TMT NYC DA REAL GHOSTBUSTERS

          Pat Russell’s a semi-blind old fart.

          • Rick

            One of many.

  • Left Hook2

    Loma P4P #1. It’s not just eking out a victory over an opponent because judges turn in horrific scorecards or the ref lets you turn it into a wrestling match. It is overwhelming your opposition. Beating them decidedly. Taking their hearts…that is just icing on the cake. Doug made a great point with the # of champs that Loma has already faced compared to the mauling one.

    • David Telfer

      Yeah I honestly don’t understand the rush to proclaim Ward as #1 P4P other than the fact he’s black and American.

      The guy got a gift of a decision vs Kovalev in their first fight and a dubious stoppage in their second fight (admittedly he was coming on strong at that point, but there were some clear fouls before the stoppage).

      Apart from that he hadn’t fought anyone of note in 4/5 years.

      Personally I think Chocolatito should still be #1 – he’s still unbeaten in my eyes and hopefully he avenges that ‘loss’ soon. Lomachenko is unbelievable though and I’d love to see him in with bigger names sooner rather than later.

      • Left Hook2

        Roman is an excellent choice as well, and you will get no grief from me by having him at the top. I love his two-fisted attack. Funny how bad decisions are given undue weight by many pundits.

        • Chris Stans

          “Close but clear” decisions get ignored when the wrong guy wins

        • ceylon mooney

          that one wasnt even close, not debatable at all.

      • chickenstock

        i would still have choc at one or two as well. taking on BEASTS that he is too small to hurt, two full weight classes above his ideal weight, every fight a war. Never loses his ‘shape’, always looking smart. Yes he takes hits but boxers who don’t take a hit very rarely have any exciting offence.

        I would have Ward either one or two though. although he was fortunate to get the nod in the first fight, i thought he looked absolutely terrific in the 2nd fight. not to rake old ground but he took the fight out of kov – yes with a couple of low blows — but in a lot of legit and impressive ways too. the guy is mentally tough as shit.

        • philoe bedoe

          Id have Chocalatito as no1.
          The most skillfull pressure fighter around………..

          • ceylon mooney

            and still undefeated

          • philoe bedoe

            I agree………

          • ceylon mooney

            i wonder if well see pacquiao margarito 2 for rungvisai rematch

      • Juan Manuel Valverde

        I agree that Chocolatito is still the best, but disagree on your take on Ward. Even though I gave the first fight to Kovalev, my brother, who I respect his opinion gave it to Ward and had very good points on why, and he did beat him the second time. Yes, it might have been a low blow but Kovalev was and looked like a beaten man. I don’t rate Ward higher than GGG and Chocolatito, yet I do have him at least in the top 5.

        • ceylon mooney

          theyre 1-1, both wins bein clear wins, but wards win really made
          a statement.

          • TNT

            Yup, the statement being, “hit’em often, hit’em low, hit’em low often.” Chavez would say that body work would get a guy’s head and Ward took that to another level.

          • ceylon mooney

            HAHAHAHA!

    • Stephen M

      Well, Ward pretty well took Kov’s heart in the second fight. In my view, Ward definitely deserves #1 or #2. Not that I like his style… Chocolatito hasn’t looked like pound for pound#1 in his last couple of fights. I think Loma or Crawford could be#1 but they need a few more significant fights each.

      • Left Hook2

        I respect your opinion but disagree. I felt Kovalev got gassed from throwing and landing more punches than he did in the first fight (and was strangely behind on 2 of the idiot judges cards..)
        If the first fight was scored properly, and Kovalev gets the win (of course, there would have been no rematch), and Ward gets his ‘revenge’, where does Ward rank then? I still think top 10, but P4P is also a fashion show. Ward gets zip in that dept. IMHO.

        • Stephen M

          Ward certainly doesn’t get any points for esthetics. His fights aren’t pretty. In fact, some of them are ugly. Still, if I actually liked the guy how would I view his fights? Brutally effective.

    • Juan Manuel Valverde

      Still, there are fighters right now that have better and longer resumes that are still in their prime that have proven themselves against way better opposition, so no, he’s still nowhere near the best, that would be disrespectful to the accomplishments of those other fighters. Ward, GGG, Canelo, Kovalev, Chocolatito, all have way better resumes at a more consistent basis over a longer period of time.

      • Dee Money

        I think its the old Eye Test vs Resume vs Recent Resume argument. Clearly Lomachenko doesn’t have the overall resume to be number one. Although if you think Ward clearly lost the first fight then his Recent Resume may not compare with Lomachenko’s.

        Then of course there is the eye test; if you watch him fight and feel that relative to his weight class he is currently the best active fighter out there….then I guess you gotta rank him number one.

        • Left Hook2

          That’s a good description. I kinda throw around the ‘who would I want to be’….ward, who muddles his way to a non-descript or undeserved victory, GGG who may have to take a few lumps along the way, or Loma, who seems to be able to toy with his opposition. I know that there are question marks, but who has footwork like Loma? Who has a handspeed advantage in relation to his opponents like Loma? Who controls the distance like Loma? Who literally makes his opponents quit like Loma? The eye-test, much like GGG and his ability to cut off the ring and corral his opponent, makes a pretty good case for being the best.

          • Stephen M

            I think Loma is probably the best fighter out there based on the eye test. If that is the criteria Loma is p4p. On ring accomplishments he is close but not quite there.

        • Juan Manuel Valverde

          I dont think it was a clear victory, as I told you, I watched it with my brother and we disagreed on several rounds. He pointed out body shots and how Kovalev was weakend as the rounds progressed. I can totally see that and respect anybody who thought that was the way to score it. It was a close fight between to evenly matched fighters. How many evenly matched fights has Loma had? Kovalev as way above anybody Lomachenko has fought. So until he faces someone like him and beats him like he beats every opponent then I’ll go ahead and rank him above accomplished fighters. He’s been favored widely in every single one of his fights, so no, I can’t rate him over these guys …. yet…

          I think Rigo is not as great as people say he is. He’s been dropped and hurt by C opposition. Imagine GGG getting dropped by Dwayne Wayde? People would already say he was exposed yet Rigo gets all the benefit of the doubt (much like Broner). There’s always an excuse , either he was distracted or they didn’t prepare properly. The fact is the guy has a shaky chin and average guys have been able to drop and hurt him.

          • Dee Money

            I apologize for the confusion of my first paragraph. My use of the word “you” was not meant at you directly, rather it was the universal “you”; referring to “anyone who thought Ward clearly lost the first fight could rank him lower.

            In regards to your overall premise, I stick by my statement that P4P rankings can mean different things to different people. Some look at it as resume, others look at it as who they think the best boxer is relative to their weight class. Though Loma obviously does not have Ward’s resume I don’t think its far fetched for someone to see him box and then project his skillset, abilities, and relative athleticism to being the best boxer currently in the world.

            Obviously the more fights someone has against higher levels of competition allows for a greater sample size to measure their beliefs with, but that doesn’t mean it is impossible to project using what we have seen from Loma thus far.

    • ceylon mooney

      well u could say inoue oughtta be #1

  • learnmore

    $700k+ a low ball offer ?, what world are you iving in writer, these are lower weight fighters. Very few lower weight fighters get $1m, Santa Cruz is the only lower weight fighter to get a $1m official purse since Donaire’s $1m+ in 2013 vs Rigondeaux. And mentioning Rigondeaux, his tweets yesterday, saying that if you think Lomachenko in 2017 is better than Donaire in 2013. He has to be paid more than his $750k official purse he got then in 2013, Rigondeaux & Salido are overpricing themselves. Chocolatito, Frampton dont get $700k+, Why do Rigondeaux & Salido think that they should? Lomachenko v Salido is not even a competitive fight IMO, I understand Lomachenko wants to avenge the loss vs Salido and its the best fight to make next at 130lb because Berchelt is injured & Davis needs more time. But Berchelt & Davis are the only real threat for Lomachenko at 130lb.

  • learnmore

    These undercards of Crawford v Indongo & Mayweather v Macgregor are not that good, probably only Cleverly v Jack get a pass from me, the rest are meh.

    • Jorge

      mismatches

    • All the money goes to the main event, so there isn’t enough to put together really good undercard bouts…

      • Carlos

        Supposedly the largest PPV event in the history of the world, and they can’t fund a decent under-card. Greedy Bastards.

        • Stephen M

          That’s the whole point isn’t it?

    • ceylon mooney

      i always like cunningham

      davis is impressive, tho i dunno his opponent. man inoues next opponent is ranked 50 or something wtf

  • learnmore

    What the f**k is Daniel Jacobs doing, taking a victory lap after losing sitting on the shelf. Waiting for what, If Canelo wins he aint getting that fight, if GGG wins, Canelo has a rematch clause. Now Jermall got that WBC mandatory spot, its no way that his team would advice Jermall to risk that by fighting Jacobs. Lemieux looks like he is waiting for a Cotto fight in December if Cotto beats Kamegai. BJS v Mnroe jr winner an option I suppose for a title. Jacobs v Lee in NY probably another good other option while waiting for a bigger fight. But do something Jacobs, you cant live on that loss for ever. You’re sitting & waiting and others are moving in position & jumping over you. Jermall WBC mandatory, Murata v NDam rematch scheduled for October the winner will be WBA mandatory, Derevyanchenko vs Johnson, IBF mandatory eliminator on August 25. Especially with Jacob’s trainer saying that Jacobs aint got long left at 160lb may be a few more fights if Jacobs is lucky moving to 168.

    • chickenstock

      ha, i just wrote the same thing!

    • chickenstock

      Gimme jacobs v degale! a cracker. Failing that. Jacobs v Kessler!

      • Rick

        Kessler retired I believe.

        • chickenstock

          no, he’s back.

    • ceylon mooney

      haymon fighter

  • chickenstock

    Doug, if Jacobs has been on a moral victory lap for a fight he lost 5 months ago… dude, there’s something inherently wrong with that! he could have fought in july or august against a decent level guy to consolidate his level of performance that he showed against GG(G). all that steam he had has evaporated! AKA he’s an al haymon fighter!

    • Yup. He should at least have a fight scheduled and be in training by now… but hey, we’re in the age of “Participant Trophies”…

    • Rick

      He’s a Haymon guy don’t forget. They only fight about once a year. And with the check he got from the Golovkin fight it might be 3 years before he gets back in the ring.

  • chickenstock

    Dougie, if Froch came outta retirement to fight Jacobs at 168 – who wins?

    • Juan Manuel Valverde

      I’ll go Jacobs,

      • wrecksracer

        Yeah, age being a big factor. Prime Froch, I might have to go with him.

    • philoe bedoe

      Froch, Jacobs is to vulnerable around the whiskers………..

    • philoe bedoe

      I also get the feeling we may never see another performance from Jacobs again like the one against Golovkin……….

      • ceylon mooney

        i cant believe he held it together for an entire fight

        he was a bungling doofus with that mora
        rematch, got knocked stupud in the first one. i wanted that rematch but mora cant act for shit and those two kept trippin over each other.

        • philoe bedoe

          I agree, he’s a talented boxer but he doesn’t always put it together………..

    • I would firmly favor Jacobs.

  • Juan Manuel Valverde

    I agree that Lomachenko is boring. Yes, he is very talented and has crazy skills, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t make me fall asleep. He’s also an a-hole and has zero charisma, I don’t understand why they want to push this guy as a future star which he clearly isn’t. Again, don’t get my comment wrong, he is a very talented guy that has managed to look spectacular against B opposition. If you ask me about pound for pound rankings I can tell you that each person has their own, they don’t mean anything and if Teddy thinks Vasyl is better than Ward or is higher in his list, then so be it, it doesn’t change anything. To me, Vasyl belongs in the top 10-15 fighters in the world today based on accomplishments+talent, the only reason I don’t rate him higher is because he hasn’t had enough fights to prove it or a signature win. If he continues doing what he’s doing against the level of opposition he’s been fighting, I’ll eventually move him up, but for now there’s not enough info for me to consider him over already proven fighters.

    Ward, GGG, Canelo, Kovalev, Garcia, Crawford, Pacquiao, Yamanaka, all of them have proven to be among the best, but if you ask me, the best is still Chocolatito, that guy has done things that all those guys have yet to come close to, he got robbed in his only loss and he performs at the very highest level in the game. Rigondeaux is very flawed, he gets dropped by journeymen, and rarely fights, he can’t live out of his Donaire victory forever, that was ages ago! So no, I don’t even rank him in my p4p list.

    • wrecksracer

      I actually did fall asleep on that last Loma fight lol. When he’s in with better talent (Walters, GRJ) I think he’s more exciting. Guys like Loma and Rigo are so good, they shut down their opponents’ offense. It makes the fight one sided.

      • Chris Stans

        he beat grj so consistently every round that I found it boring

    • Reggie Woodard

      I still have Chocolatito atop the P4P list as well…. Once Loma fights guys like Linares, Garcia, Easter Jr, Flanagan(and wins all or even 3 outta 4) then he’d certainly be a top 10 or top 5 guy.

      • ceylon mooney

        lomas already fought much better foghters that easter

        • Reggie Woodard

          I don’t know about much better and stylistically Easter Jr could trouble him early on due to his height and reach. Not a must see fight by any stretch. Just want to see Loma get as many fights as possible(he’s 29 already, I think).

    • Johnny Albo

      yall crazy he is so fun to watch the way he moves its like watching a guy perform, hes awesome.

      • Juan Manuel Valverde

        Yes , for a couple of minutes. This isn’t art or ballet. Its the fight game. We want good fights.

        • Johnny Albo

          i agree but he’s not like mayweather “art” that puts u to sleep. he’s pretty exciting even if hes not crazy offensive. mayweather is a snore to watch. loma gets me pretty amped. he wears ppl down. marriaga might have not beenall that fun, but the rest of the fights have been pretty fun systematic beat downs. not everyones gonna be a GGG but i appreciate the loma style too, he keeps it high paced and doesnt run around or clinch like mayweather.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Agree to a certain extent. I think properly match he can produce some very interesting matchups!

          • Spider Rico

            That’s what I like about Lomachenko – he doesn’t run, hold/wrestle, and rarely clinches when he’s boxing and outclassing his opponents.

        • Stephen M

          I thought it was really fun to watch. There is no suspense though in fights like that.

        • Jim Parkinson

          In terms of entertainment value, Lomachenko is a “high tech” Paul Spadafora. He’s much more advanced as a fighter than Spadafora, but his fighting style follows the same pattern: tap, tap, tap, step around. Tap, tap, tap, step around. Tap, tap, tap, showboat, step around. Over and over until the other guy falls down or quits. It’s REALLY monotonous. And hearing HBO commentators (I didn’t watch the ESPN fight) constantly TELL us how entertaining Loma is while he fights just makes it seem worse.

          A young Pacquiao had similar footwork and combinations, but there was a recklessness and savagery to his approach (especially when he had his man hurt) that made him electric. No commentators had to tell us that he was exciting. Most of the time the commentators would get wrapped up in the excitement themselves.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            100% agree

        • David Telfer

          You want good fights, but if one guy is so far ahead of everyone else he fights then what do you want him to do?

    • Werd!

    • Kudos

      Only reason you don’t rate him higher is because he’s not mexican.

  • Autosmell

    uh oh peeps we got new rules! how am I posed to tell my Swan tales now?

    • Stephen M

      Be pulight.

    • Rick

      Arr those like duck tales?

  • Chris Smith

    Looking forward to Crawford-Indongo. From the (limited) footage out there on Indongo this much is clear: He’s technically sound, has a good jab and an accurate left hand. Can work it effectively over the top, through the middle and to the body. Add to that, he’s a defensively responsible fighter with nice movement for such a tall, gangly 140-lbs fighter.

    Crawford obviously is a complete fighter who excels in most aspects and really looks like a fighter with next to no weaknesses. I’d figure him to start as he always does by not giving too much away and scouting to see what Indongo has (like he said “See what he likes to do/what he don’t like to do”) and a fairly even first 3-4 rounds. I envisage Bud working around Indongo’s size and finding something he likes and taking it from there.

    Bud is probably the best fighter at sniffing out an opponents weakness and taking control at the snap of a finger. What I saw even in the Burns fight is that maybe Indongo doesn’t necessarily look comfortable if he’s pushed back so I expect Bud to start doing that towards the middle of the fight and winning most of the fight after round 6. Unless Indongo proves very adaptable from that point then I think we are looking at a 117-111/118-110 type fight (i.e – like the Postol bout).

    • wrecksracer

      I’m hoping Indongo can land something substantial to see what Crawford’s chin is made of. Otherwise, it will probably be one long fight.

  • Johnny Albo

    That was fucking awesome the responses to snore-machenko email. If i was that dude i would be like wellll shit…he got me good. U hit all the nails on the head one by one. People need to stop bitching and start enjoying true talent.

  • philoe bedoe

    Excellent mailbag again Doug.
    I like Marquez and I’ve enjoyed watching his fights, especially when he got older, when he brawled more.
    But imo he’s a little overrated.
    Went life and death with good not great fighters ( Diaz, Katsides etc)
    and was blessed with having the right style to give Pacquiao nightmares…………

    • Left Hook2

      I think ‘overrated’ is a little harsh. He changed his style as he aged and went up in weight. He was in his mid-30’s when he was fighting those young guys. He absolutely punished them. It’s almost as if he underwent a transformation from someone who was disciplined enough to be boring and was content with just winning (hmmm..Rigo), to someone who wanted to prove he was as much Mexican as any of the others (Barrera, Morales, etc.). And then he went out and proved it. He was terribly boring in his first life, but a lot of fun to watch over the 2nd half of his career. As a boxing fan, I was well pleased.

      • philoe bedoe

        Just not enough consistency with a wide range of styles to be an ATG like a lot of people would have him.
        But he was entertaining in the later years……….

        • RayK

          I find it kind of weird that in the last few months people are like ”Hey, Mexican style is a myth!” but Marquez changed his style (I didn’t see the transition) and got some love.
          Pssst, there’s a cool, thorough tribute to him over on FightCity. I feel bad always posting articles fro other sites on Ringtv.

  • Lee Hamerston

    Cant believe some guys are saying Loma is boring. Show some appriciatio. Sit back and enjoy. If he doesnt make your list…thats cool, no need to get vexed for free about it. Loma is special we just dont know how special or not so special ..yet. Time will tell.

  • J rock

    I got a lot of respect for Lubin’s team…..cause calling out Charlo when you have been feeding on baby food your entire career shows you truly believe in your guy and looking to get on the fast track to stardom. Lubin looks to have the attributes….he’s big, strong, with reach and he’s a Southpaw.

    Respect to Charlo for taking this fight, because Lubin is a guy I wouldn’t be looking to fight if I’m Charlo’s people. I would definitely be saying the Lubin kid hasn’t done enough to deserve a fight with my guy….go tell him to fight Andrade…then come see my guy. Lubin is one of those very dangerous only known to true boxing fans….losing to him will damage your brand…and beating Lubin doesn’t help your brand enough given the risk your taking getting in the ring with that monster. Respect to Charlo for challenging himself and not pulling a Floyd. Cause Lubin is easily one of the most dangerous young contenders in the game right now.

    • Rick

      Lubin was a pretty good amateur wasn’t he? Thought I heard that anyway.

      • J rock

        He probably was. Wouldn’t be surprised. I just know he looks like a future champion. And he has disposed of inferior competition like he is supposed too. So Lubin vs Charlo should be a classic.

    • ceylon mooney

      im thrilled. this matchup really goes against how US boxing is controlled. in this day and age and country this matchup shouldn’t be happening.

      man i been waiting for. cant wait for this fight.

      • J rock

        Exactly. I was shocked it was even seriously being considered given how boxing politics usually works. I get GGG VS Alvarez. That is a huge money fight that needed to happen now, and the fans clamored for it. I get Garcia vs Broner. It was Garcia’s time to be pushed to national spotlight and it was Broners time to be pushed out. But Lubin vs Charlo is not something anyone asked to see, not something anyone expected to see, and Lubin is a guy who is not known to casuals, so Lubin can’t really call out Charlo and it be taken really seriously. So props to Charlo for taking this. Cause I would advise Charlo to fight someone a lot less dangerous so we can possibly get the winner of GGG vs Canelo

  • Anthony Oliver

    Lost alot of respect for this mailbag when the author said Lomenchenko list of opponents was comprable to Ward’s. Ward’s a first ballot hall of famer right now if he never fights again. Loma’s might be too but mostly based off those 2 gold medals. Wins over Gary Russel Jr and Nicholas Walters dont really trump wins over Froch and Kessler and 2 wins over Kovalev in my opinion.

    • J rock

      Facts. Gary Russel has proven nothing in boxing. He is talented, but who has he tested it against? Same with Walters.

  • Terry Cochran

    I’m always surprised when I look at Ring Magazine’s P4P ratings that Errol Spence, Jr. isn’t in the mix. Personally I would list him as just behindTerrance Crawford.

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