NO MAS!

All I have to say is wow! Vasyl Lomachenko is the master of boxing, he should be the #1 p4p. I know he has that loss against Orlando Salido but if Loma were to get the rematch he would destroy Salido no doubt. I also see Francisco Vargas having little chance to beat Loma and if Loma fights the PacMan I think Loma would retire him which would be a good thing and it would be like Loma is the heir to Pac. Loma is going to be one of greatest boxes of this era. On another note I was glad to see Max Kellerman admit that Kovalev won but he gave it a BS score.

Oh yeah and Dennis from El Centro, CA, Loma is overrated?

What did you think of the “no mas” from Nicholas Walters and his corner? – Matt

It caught me by surprise but I can’t be mad at them even though I was hoping for an entertaining fight. Walters knew that he had no answer for Lomachenko’s precision blend of skill, technique and athleticism, and so did his corner. They also knew that Lomachenko is more than just a masterful boxer. They know he wants to make statements by scoring knockouts if possible, so they knew the late rounds were going to be brutal. They pulled the plug rather than allow their fighter to be completely dismantled. It’s an unsatisfying ending to an anticipated high-profile fight, but it was probably the right call. We all criticize corners when they don’t stop a ridiculously one-sided fight or beating, maybe we should give a little credit to the corners than know when to say when.

Regarding Dennis from El Centro, California’s claim that Lomachenko’s “skills are highly overrated” (contrary to what I regularly write in this column, as he pointed out) in last Friday’s mailbag, all I have to say is that he’s lucky he’s a fan and not a boxing reporter or columnist with an established social media presence. If he was, he’d be feeling the wrath of the Loma Lovers (and I’m guessing you’re one of ‘em). My challenge for him (and other Loma doubters) to point out any areas where the Ukrainian needs to improve still stands, because as I stated in the last mailbag I don’t see any flaws in his technical game or any lacking in athletic/boxing ability.

(Lomachenko) should be the #1 p4p. He’s on his way. Show some patience and allow him to earn it.

I know he has that loss against Orlando Salido but if Loma were to get the rematch he would destroy Salido no doubt. I don’t think it would be a walk in the park but I agree that Lomachenko would get his revenge and ultimate put a beating on the veteran Mexican warrior.

I also see Francisco Vargas having little chance to beat Loma. I’m a Bandito fan, but I agree. I don’t think his cut-and-swelling prone face would hold out past seven rounds.

If Loma fights the PacMan I think Loma would retire him which would be a good thing and it would be like Loma is the heir to Pac. I think your Uncle Bob is already working on this scenario.

Loma is going to be one of greatest boxes of this era. Only time will tell. In the meantime, slow your roll a bit.

On another note I was glad to see Max Kellerman admit that Kovalev won but he gave it a BS score. LOL. Well, I gave Ward an extra round upon my second viewing, so maybe if we both watch the fight again we can agree that Kovalev deserved it by a 115-112 score.

THE PICASSO OF BOXING

Hi Doug…

It’s been a long time since my last mail… Good Boxing Fights lately… Kovalev-Ward and Loma-Walters so here I am…. My man Loma did it again.… He once again Painted a Beautiful Fight… Walters is an elite SOB but Picasso painted him like he’s no top fighter in boxing…. Dictated the tempo all throughout and never allowed Walters to establish his game plan, the punching activity of Loma is too much for him to handle. He tried to open up in Round 6 and the beauty of the picture is shaping up and come Round 7 Picasso put the finishing touches…

I didn’t expect that he will quit (should drink some Mexican Blood) but the outcome of the fight is already clear, can’t blame Walters if he thinks the same… I think Loma VS Rigo should be made ASAP…Your take on this fight? … Can’t stop reading your Bags… Keep it up Doug. – Anghel Sagrado, Abu Dhabi, U.A.E.

You sound content in your mailbag addiction, Anghel, so that makes me a happy dealer.

And you sound positively giddy over the seemingly limitless boxing brilliance and career potential of Lomachenko. You are not alone and I can’t really blame you guys for popping fan-boy boners at the sight of his ring wizardry (or artistry, as you aptly put it). He’s clearly special.

Rigondeaux is also special, and like Lomachenko, the counter-punching Cuban is a bona-fide amateur legend. However, I think this fight was possible in late 2014 (shortly after Lomachenko won his featherweight title) or early 2015 (before Rigondeaux’s profile in the sport, particularly here in the U.S., completely shriveled away). Now that Lomachenko has established himself at 130 pounds (and has his sights on boxing’s bigger fish) the showdown with Rigo seems like a pipe dream to me. Rigo isn’t willing to go up to 126 pounds and I doubt that Loma is willing to drop back down for him. My guess is that a rematch with Salido or a unification bout vs. Vargas or a move to lightweight is more likely than a fight with Rigo. (I have no idea what’s up with Rigo’s career but, as I’ve stated before in this column, I’d like to see if a showdown with WBC/RING bantamweight champ Shinsuke Yamanaka could be arranged in 2017.)

LOMA-WALTERS, ARUM & BAD JUDGES

Hi Dougie,

I hope you and your family had a happy Thanksgiving.

Vasyl Lomachenko was beyond dominant. Was this due to his greatness or Nicholas Walter’s lack of effort? On Saturday, Walters lost a lot of fans, who will always support a fighter who loses in a heroic effort. I was surprised Walter quit, regardless of how Loma may have been frustrating him.

It would be interesting to see Walters face Gary Russell Jr. to get a better handle on where these guys stand versus one another and to put Lomachenko’s ability in perspective. I hope we can see Lomachenko-Crawford at some point.

Bob Arum has quite a résumé. The fighters he’s promoted are incredible. Was glad they acknowledged him, he has made a real contribution to professional boxing.

When HBO replayed the Kovalev-Ward fight, it served to reinforce the bad decision. I give Max Kellerman credit for modifying his initial score, now giving the fight to Kovalev. Too bad the judges don’t have that same option! How do boxing judges get chosen? Is it by the promoters, the state boxing commission, the particular sanctioning boxing organization? Also, what is the system for identifying judges who consistently produce bad decisions? Do the state boxing commissions track this? If a judge is often in conflict with the other two judges’ scores, does anything happen? I assume these judges have to be licensed- what does that entail? Do they need to get “recertified”? Who pays the judges? These answers may help boxing fans better understand terrible decisions like we saw last weekend. Thanks! – Rahn

Well, not everyone agrees that Kovalev-Ward was a “terrible decision.” It seems like around 25-35% of those who have watched the fight either agree with the official scores (awarding the fight to Ward by one point) or believe that it was legitimately close and could have gone to either fighter by a point or two. So you can’t assume that the boxing world wants to overhaul the selection process for professional judges or penalize/keep a special eye on Burt Clements, Glenn Trowbridge and John McKaie. However, I maintain (like you and a legion of fans/media members worldwide) that those three royally screwed up. I’m not saying that they are “terrible” judges. In fact, I think that they usually do a good job. But in my opinion they had a bad night on Nov. 19 (and if you Google their names along with “controversy” or “controversial scorecard(s),” you’ll see that they’ve had a few other “head-scratching” scorecards – in boxing and MMA – as most veteran Nevada judges do).

How do boxing judges get chosen? Is it by the promoters, the state boxing commission, the particular sanctioning boxing organization? In the U.S., judges are selected by the state commission that oversees boxing in that particular jurisdiction. The sanctioning bodies used to have a say in the selection of officials (some still have a registry of veteran refs and judges that commissions can pull from or refer to, and most offer seminars to help educate officials at their annual conventions). Co-promoters of an event have to agree on the commissions’ selections and a promoter has the right to object to certain officials (although the commission can overrule the promoter).

What is the system for identifying judges who consistently produce bad decisions? Do the state boxing commissions track this? It’s up to the commission to investigate really poor scorecards. It rarely happens. I think the last time judges were called to task over their scores was when Paul Williams received that dreadful majority decision over Erislandy Lara in 2011. That fight took place in Atlantic City, so the New Jersey State Athletic Commission conducted a review with all three judges and suspended them for an indefinite period of time while they were supposed to receive more training.

If a judge is often in conflict with the other two judges’ scores, does anything happen? Only if there’s a lot of controversy attached to those scores (the recently retired CJ Ross comes to mind, as does Dalby Shirley, who caught some heat in the late ‘90s/early 2000s). Professional boxing judges aren’t there to agree with one another. That’s why they sit at opposite sides of the ring (so they can have different perspectives of the action) and they aren’t supposed to communicate with one another (as fans and members of the media often do while scoring a fight). That’s one of the reasons some fans and media are suspicious of the near uniformity of the Kovalev-Ward scorecards.

I assume these judges have to be licensed- what does that entail? Judges are trained and certified by the state commissions. They start of judging amateur and club shows and/or preliminary bouts (off-TV four rounders on the undercards of major shows) and they gradually work their way up to six-, eight-, 10- and 12-round bouts just like an up-and-coming fighter does.

Do they need to get “recertified”? There probably should be mandatory re-certification periods instituted by the commissions but I don’t believe there are. Commission and sanctioning organizations offer educational seminars for all officials but I think it’s more of a voluntary thing for the veterans.

Who pays the judges? The promoters (the judges’ fees usually range between $2,500 to $4,500 for major world title bouts – and can be much more for the mega-events), which is one of the key problems with the system.

Vasyl Lomachenko was beyond dominant. Ya think?

Was this due to his greatness or Nicholas Walter’s lack of effort? I’m gonna give Lomachenko credit for Walters’ “No Mas.” Lomachenko put hand cuffs on the proud Jamaican boxer-puncher from the get-go – and he did so with his quickness and defense, not through extreme physical punishment – so once the Ukrainian badass began to step up his aggression, I think Walters saw the writing on the wall and decided to spare himself and everyone watching a senseless beating.

Walters lost a lot of fans, who will always support a fighter who loses in a heroic effort. This true whether it’s fair to the fighter that elects not to continue or not.

I was surprised Walter quit, regardless of how Loma may have been frustrating him. I didn’t see it coming. I figured Walters would be encouraged by Lomachenko’s increasing aggression because that may have been his only shot at clipping the super-savvy southpaw.

It would be interesting to see Walters face Gary Russell Jr. to get a better handle on where these guys stand versus one another and to put Lomachenko’s ability in perspective. I thought Loma clearly handled Russell the first time, and I don’t think Russell has improved much since that fight. I believe Loma has improved (scary thought). I also believe that Russell has the same problem that may have held Walters back – inactivity.

I hope we can see Lomachenko-Crawford at some point. That is a future Dream Fight. It all depends on how long Crawford can continue to make 140 pounds, or on how quickly Loma can climb divisions.

Bob Arum has quite a résumé. The fighters he’s promoted are incredible. Was glad they acknowledged him, he has made a real contribution to professional boxing. He’s enshrined in the International Boxing Hall of Fame for a reason. I think he’s one of the all-time greats of the promotional side of boxing.

A WTF MOMENT IN BOXING

Hey Doug,

I just finished watching Vasyl Lomachenko and Nicholas Walters bout on HBO as well as the replay of Kovalev/Ward. As far as the latter goes, that fight has already been picked apart so I will just say it was close but I didn’t think Ward did enough to take Kovalev’s title. Maybe as the Krusher said, a little home cooking was going on.

As for Lomachenko and Walters, I was expecting a good fight. The matchup looked great on paper. I wanted to see what happened when Walters landed some big shots. It was pretty clear in round one that Vasyl’s craft was on another level. Not just the hand speed and combinations but the upper body movement and footwork. Still I waited for Walters to get warmed to the task but the only thing that got warmed up was the sides of his head. It just got more and more one sided as it went on but still I waited for Walters to come alive. When he just up and quit I just could not believe it coupled with the fact that he was so nonchalant about it…like it was no big deal.

As Max Kellerman pointed out and as all your readers know, that’s just not done in boxing. A real champion would rather be carried out than to quit that way. I don’t know if Walters’ career will recover fully from this and he did not seem to realize the gravity of what he did. I wonder if he will when he wakes up Sunday morning?

I can’t even speculate what is next for Lomachenko, but I do want to ask you this. The HBO team were calling Lomachenko the greatest amateur boxer of all time. In my day they used to say similar things about Mark Breland. Can you compare the two fighter’s amateur credentials as to where they stand in those kind of rankings? Always appreciate your thoughts. – David, Nashville

I’m not much of an amateur boxing historian, David. If you want to talk to someone who really knows that part of the boxing world, may I suggest contacting former super middleweight contender/light heavyweight title challenger “Iceman” John Scully (who is now a trainer and occasional commentator). His Twitter handle is @IceJohnScully. Hit him up. He loves boxing and he loves to talk boxing.

I think Breland and Lomachenko are comparable in that both men dominated the amateur sport on the regional, national and international levels, and both only lost to one competitor (Breland to James Ortega; Loma to Albert Selimov) who they defeated in subsequent bouts. Here’s the main difference in their careers (from my perspective): Breland boxed during a time when the amateur bouts were closer to the professional style, while Lomachenko came around during AIAB’s often-maligned point scoring system; and the Ukrainian lefty remained amateur longer than Breland did, and thus has a more extensive amateur career.

Breland won the 1982 world amateur championships and the ’84 Olympic gold en route to compiling a reported 110-1 record (including more than 70 knockouts – many of them pro-style stoppages, not RSC). (Breland probably would have been favored to win the Pan-American Games in ’83 but he sat out that tournament because he was recovering from surgery on his right hand.)

Lomachenko won the 2009 and 2011 world amateur championships and took gold in the 2008 and 2012 Olympic Games (and he also was the 2008 European champ) en route to compiling an insane 396-1 record.

It was pretty clear in round one that Vasyl’s craft was on another level. Yup, so you have to figure that it was pretty clear to Walters, too, no?

Not just the hand speed and combinations but the upper body movement and footwork. Lomachenko has an uncanny talent for working all of these attributes at the same time. It must be a nightmare to deal with for his opponents.

It just got more and more one sided as it went on but still I waited for Walters to come alive. In retrospect, we should have seen the corner retirement coming as veteran observers, such as my good friend Dave Schwartz and former 130-pound titleholder/trainer of the year award-winner Robert Garcia, did.

When he just up and quit I just could not believe it coupled with the fact that he was so nonchalant about it…like it was no big deal. Walters may not have worn his emotions on his sleeve after making that difficult decision but I’m certain that it was indeed a big deal to him. Like I said, in retrospect we really shouldn’t have been surprised. You said it best with this statement: Vasyl’s craft was on another level.

As Max Kellerman pointed out and as all your readers know, that’s just not done in boxing. Generally speaking, yes, that’s true, but given some of the ring tragedies (fighters suffering fatal or permanently debilitating head injuries) that we’ve had in recent years maybe it should be done from time to time.

A real champion would rather be carried out than to quit that way. Yeah, you can say that, and it probably should be the truth but what it really is, is an ideal, and ideals are not reality. Ideals are our concepts of perfection. Human beings aren’t perfect. Fighters are human beings. Sometimes we just don’t have it in us to give our best (at whatever it is) on a given day or night. Sometimes fighters climb those steps to the prize ring knowing that they just don’t have it. Or they find out within the first minute or round of the fight that they don’t have it, or don’t have nearly enough to deal with what’s in front of them. I’d rather witness a fighter realize this before it’s too late than after the fact.

Bottom line for me: If a fight is not competitive at all and there’s no realistic shot of that changing, I have no interest in seeing it go the distance.

I don’t know if Walters’ career will recover fully from this and he did not seem to realize the gravity of what he did. I think he did. I think he knows that he’s going to have to deal with it and that it won’t be an easy road back to respect or prominence within the sport.

WARD STILL WON, WALTERS SUCKS

I don’t feel the bed to be disrespectful, however still passionate.

Do you remember Leonard/Hagler? Who did you have winning? That fight is debated to this day.

It depends on what style you favor.

I for one saw a lot of DRAMA but not a lot of landed blows from Kovy. He hit him with a strong jab that caught Andre by surprise because he didn’t recognize the length and reach and speed of Kovy early. He got caught with a shot he did not see coming in the second round. Outside of that Kovy really didn’t do anything.

He was loading up throwing huge shots with a lot of drama because you knew that Ward went down you felt Ward was small moving up and that any shot could change the course of the fight none of that materialized.

I saw a very skilled super middleweight who moved up and kept scratching and sniffing in working hard trying to find a way to win. Vs. A big guy who did not appear to want it as much and was relaxed and somewhat coasting. He was strangling Ward while Ward was hitting him with body shots they would have removed the spleen of a lesser man.

There is a reason he did not run over Ward like he did Pascal and so many other Fighters. I was watching Ward fight a very good fight and he won. It’s just a matter of what you favored.

Let’s fast forward to this week you had a huge puncher who never got dropped who had a puncher’s chance and he just packed it in. Versus a small man against a huge puncher who stood right in front of him all night long scratching and sniffing and trying to make it happen. Some people claimed Ward ran all night I never saw him run I saw him circling backing kovalev out of position to punch and jumping in with shots he was moving back sideways and constantly forward. He was moving in and out he never ran. – Jason C. Brown

I don’t think Ward ran, but I don’t think he did enough to win the fight, either. And it’s not really about the styles that I prefer, it’s about who landed the more effective punches most of the time and in my opinion that was Kovalev. Some people gave him credit for his jab and control of distance (for much of the fight, though not all of it), and some – mainly the official judges – did not.

Regarding Walters and his “punchers chance,” you know that’s just another way of saying that he had to get lucky, right?

Speaking of “luck,” how about Clements, Trowbridge and McKaie ALL scoring Round 10 for Ward? What’s up with that?

Do you remember Leonard/Hagler? Who did you have winning? That fight is debated to this day. Yes it is, and it was legitimately close in my opinion, although I didn’t score the fight when I first watched it (fans – even diehards – didn’t really do that as much as folks seem to do now). I didn’t really care to score it. I was just happy my guy – Leonard – won. That’s the sense that I get from most of the fans (even some media members) who defend the scorecards of Nov. 19 (and I’m not saying you’re necessarily part of this group). They wanted Ward to win and “their guy” won, so they don’t mind a little controversy over the scorecards.

I didn’t bother to score the fight until I was in college (probably in ’89 or ’90). I saw a VHS tape of the network version of the fight entitled “The SuperFight” in a dollar bin at Wal-Mart and decided to buy it and score the fight in the quiet confines of my dorm room. As much as I loved Ray, I only had him winning by two rounds, so I had it 115-113 for my boyhood idol. Now, had Leonard been stunned by a jab as badly as Ward was by Kovalev in Round 1 and then dropped by Hagler in Round 2, I really don’t think I would have scored it for him even though he was “my guy.”

Having said that, I don’t think we can compare Kovalev and Ward to Hagler and Leonard. The hall of famers let their hands go a lot more than the light heavyweights (as middleweights should), Hagler was at the end of a great career and Leonard took that challenge after nearly three years of inactivity (and without tune-ups).

I for one saw a lot of DRAMA but not a lot of landed blows from Kovy. Ward landed a higher percentage of punches but Kovalev threw and landed more (10 more, according to CompuBox).

He hit him with a strong jab that caught Andre by surprise because he didn’t recognize the length and reach and speed of Kovy early. He got caught with a shot he did not see coming in the second round. Outside of that Kovy really didn’t do anything. That’s ridiculous, Jason. Kovalev found the mark (Ward’s face) with his jab throughout the fight.

I saw a very skilled super middleweight who moved up and kept scratching and sniffing in working hard trying to find a way to win. I agree and I think Ward did a tremendous job over the second half of the fight. It just wasn’t enough. No shame in that. But, as my man Richard Dwyer so eloquently put it, this “great” comeback over the second half of the fight that Ward’s defenders are talking about “does not show itself on film.”

Vs. A big guy who did not appear to want it as much and was relaxed and somewhat coasting. Really? Kovalev didn’t want it? If he was so indifferent and relaxed, why wasn’t Ward able to kick his coasting ass?

There is a reason he did not run over Ward like he did Pascal and so many other Fighters. Yeah I know the reason (now), it’s because Kovalev was relaxed and decided to somewhat coast. Oh, and he really didn’t want it as much.

I was watching Ward fight a very good fight and he won. It’s just a matter of what you favored. I favor the guy who landed the cleaner, harder punches and I think that guy was Kovalev.

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