Dougie’s Monday mailbag
BELLEW AND HAYE
Dear Doug,
I expect you’ll get lots of emails about Tony Bellew (and David Haye)
seeing as not much else happened this weekend… So here are my thoughts (for what they are worth) – would love to know what you made of the fight and its aftermath:
(i) Bellew understandably was crowing about his ‘power’ after a second
quick stoppage – and some commentators seem to be accepting his claims to be a ‘Bomber’. I’m not convinced. He has reasonable power (18 stoppages in 28 wins), but I can’t help remembering the 2 Cleverley fights or the 2 Chilemba fights. Against higher class opponents his punches do not look remotely as dangerous – and he certainly lacks a ‘one hitter quitter’ . . . It’s hard to imagine his ‘power’ posing a serious danger to Haye.
(ii) On the other hand, I’ve seen a bunch of comments on the internet about how ‘1-dimensional’ or ‘crude’ or ‘clumsy’ Bellew was against Flores. It’s true that he was throwing a lot of wild punches and looking for the KO – and so the fight looked scrappy at times. But it’s worth remembering that Bellew has a pretty impressive amateur background: 3 times ABA Heavyweight champion and a record of 40-7. He can be canny and cagey when he needs to be – he simply didn’t need to be against Flores.
(iii) I like Bellew – like his passion, like his fighting spirit, like his extrovert manner in interviews etc. And IF it ever happened, I would certainly enjoy all the trash-talking in the build-up to a fight with Haye. But so 2 questions for you – How likely is it this fight actually happens? Would Bellew have any real chance against Haye fighting at Heavyweight.
REALLY hope I make the bag! (Made it just once before, years ago, writing in about how Jean Pascal was ‘under-rated’ . . . hmmm, on reflection maybe not . . . )
Regards. – Tommy (in Vienna)
I don’t know if Pascal ever earned “hardcore respect” outside of Montreal but I think the former super middleweight contender/light heavyweight champ did alright for himself. He’s had a good career in my opinion.
For the record, you’re the only person who bothered writing about Bellew’s three-round stoppage of my man BJ Flores. I guess it was only a big deal in Liverpool. But I enjoyed it even though my Ozark Hills homie was dropped four times. Bellew is fun to watch and even more fun to listen to after his fights.
Bellew understandably was crowing about his ‘power’ after a second quick stoppage. I’m not convinced. I wouldn’t call Bellew “a puncher.” I just consider him to be a heavy handed boxer, a la James Toney (only, you know, not nearly as good).
He has reasonable power (18 stoppages in 28 wins), but I can’t help remembering the 2 Cleverley fights or the 2 Chilemba fights. Well, I wouldn’t hold those bouts against him. Chilemba’s got a block of granite for a chin. And Cleverly’s as tough as they come. Unless your name is Sergey Kovalev, you ain’t knockin’ “The Clev” out. Plus, Bellew was probably weight-drained at 175.
Against higher class opponents his punches do not look remotely as dangerous – and he certainly lacks a ‘one hitter quitter’ . . . It’s hard to imagine his ‘power’ posing a serious danger to Haye. Agreed. Then again, Haye’s not exactly George Chuvalo or Ray Merecer in the chin department.
On the other hand, I’ve seen a bunch of comments on the internet about how ‘1-dimensional’ or ‘crude’ or ‘clumsy’ Bellew was against Flores. You know what I’ve learned after almost 20 years of internet boxing writing? A significant percentage of the so-called “fans” that leave comments on message boards and under articles are either total dips__ts or completely insane.
It’s true that he was throwing a lot of wild punches and looking for the KO – and so the fight looked scrappy at times. But it’s worth remembering that Bellew has a pretty impressive amateur background: 3 times ABA Heavyweight champion and a record of 40-7. He can be canny and cagey when he needs to be – he simply didn’t need to be against Flores. You don’t have to convince me, Tommy. I’m not blind like some of these “armchair Eddie Futches” who can’t appreciate or even recognize boxing ability unless it’s slapped upside their silly heads in the form of elite-level talent/athleticism (and usually the defensive/neutralizer variety). I was one of the few American boxing writers to recognize the Carl Froch and Tyson Fury’s skill and ring generalship while most scribes were dissing them for their form or nonathletic body type.
I like Bellew – like his passion, like his fighting spirit, like his extrovert manner in interviews etc. Ditto!
And IF it ever happened, I would certainly enjoy all the trash-talking in the build-up to a fight with Haye. But so 2 questions for you – How likely is it this fight actually happens? I’d say it’s a distinct possibility. Didn’t the Flores fight just seem like a set-up bout for Haye-Bellew? If Bellew is willing to fight Haye at heavyweight, I think it can happen. It’s a big-money event in the UK.
Would Bellew have any real chance against Haye fighting at Heavyweight? I’d favor “the Hayemaker,” especially now he’s fighting above 220 pounds, but Bellew made a good point when he said that he would’ve whipped the two heavyweight cans that David has gone through since returning to the sport. And let’s not forget that it’s been more than four years since Haye has fought past two rounds, and the last time he’s fought more than twice in a year was 2006. He’s really a part-time boxer. Bellew is full time and he’s committed to kicking Haye’s “SpongeBob” ass.
PURSE SPLITS
Since when do the sanctioning bodies determine what the purse split of a fight will be? I thought that was the promoters job. And I can think of numerous fights where the person challenging for a belt is getting way more than the so called champ. Is that just a WBA rule and is it mainly used as leverage when negotiating? Because although I do think GGG is the A side regarding a potential fight with Jacob’s, I can’t imagine the WBA ruling being very relevant if GGG were to fight Mayweather. I realize it’s just boxing beurocracy, but if Danny Jacob’s doesn’t budge on 60-40, and GGG has no name worthy opponent on his Dec 10 date, doesn’t he position himself to make less money than he would by agreeing to Al and his outfit? – Adam
Maybe, but doesn’t that same question hold true for Jacobs?
The bottom line on Gennady Golovkin is that he’s got an HBO date on Dec. 10 (and a major venue in Madison Square Garden) if he wants it. Will he make as much money fighting someone other than Jacobs? Probably not, but he will make very good money because he’s one of the very few attractions on the U.S. boxing scene. With HBO’s license fee, foreign TV rights, GGG’s sponsors and his percentage of the live gate and merchandise sold, Tom Loeffler can pay Golovkin a healthy purse regardless of who he fights.
And the unified middleweight beltholder has proven the ability to sellout major arenas (MSG and The Forum in Inglewood, California) against lesser-known opponents. So if Jacobs doesn’t want to take the GGG Challenge, Golovkin will defend his belts against an Andy Lee (or the highest available contender in the WBA, IBF or WBC that’s willing to fight him) and keep rolling towards his inevitable mega-showdown with Canelo Alvarez.
Here’s a question nobody will bother asking if Golovkin-Jacobs isn’t made: Where does Jacobs go next? You know why they won’t ask that question, Adam? Because if Jacobs doesn’t fight GGG after all his talk (and Canelo shaming) it will become clear to even the PBCheerleaders that Al Haymon won’t let him fight outside of the PBC League. And since they’ve already seen Jacobs defeat the other top-rated PBC middleweight they’ll consider him finished as a major 160-pound player. Are there any “PBC names” for Jacobs to fight that will excite the boxing public? Will one of the Charlos step up in weight to fight him? Will Erislandy Lara do that (is he content with social media call-outs of GGG)? Does anyone even care to watch Jacobs-Lara?
Who are his top contenders in the WBA? Is there any interest in Jacobs fighting the WBA’s 12-0 (5) “interim” beltholder Alfonso Blanco (who hasn’t fought since last October)? I’m not sure that matchup is worthy of main event status at Santander Arena in Reading, Pennsylvania. Seriously. The Spike network would probably pass on that one. No. 2-rated Chris Eubank Jr. would make for a big fight in the UK, but is Jacobs willing to bust out his passport for that matchup? And is Haymon willing to deal with a man who is even more difficult than he is in negotiations, the certified bats__t Chris Eubank Sr.?
What about WBA No. 3 rated Dmitry Chudinov? Man, talk about high-risk, low reward. That Russian is a hardnosed, heavy handed S.O.B.
I gotta keep it real with you, Tommy, I don’t see why Jacobs isn’t jumping at the chance to fight Golovkin. If you’re going to take a risky fight – which GGG certainly is despite all the nitwits and haters that claim he was “exposed” by Kell Brook – why not do it on the biggest stage (on HBO at MSG or Barclays Center) against one of the biggest names in the sport, a pound-for-pound rated fighter who happens to hold three major titles (four if you count the IBO)?
Since when do the sanctioning bodies determine what the purse split of a fight will be? When the respective promoters of a sanctioning body champion (in this case Golovkin) and his mandatory challenger (in this case Jacobs) can’t reach a deal (within the alphabet organization’s deadline) on their own, the sanctioning body (in this case the WBA) orders a purse bid, in which all registered promoters can put in a bid (the total amount of money the fighters will be paid for the match) on the fight. The highest bidder wins the right to promote the fight and the winning purse bid is split between the two fighters according to the preset formula of the governing sanctioning organization. According to the WBA’s rules, a “super champion” (the status Golovkin holds) is to be paid 75% of the winning bid. Jacobs is the WBA “regular” titleholder, which only entitles him to 25% of a purse bid.
I thought that was the promoters job. It usually is, but not in the case of title bouts that are mandated by sanctioning bodies. (I think this is one of the reasons Canelo abdicated his WBC title. Being the A-side vs. GGG, he/Golden Boy didn’t want to lose any control or have to negotiate under a set deadline.) If Team Jacobs and Haymon wanted to avoid a purse bid situation they should have worked harder at negotiating a business plan with Loeffler that would get their fighter paid what he wants.
And I can think of numerous fights where the person challenging for a belt is getting way more than the so called champ. Yeah, this isn’t one of those situations.
Is that just a WBA rule and is it mainly used as leverage when negotiating? All four major sanctioning organizations (WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO) have these rules. It can be used as leverage, but I don’t think that’s what Loeffler and Team GGG wanted. Otherwise they wouldn’t have wasted their time trying to work out a deal with Haymon, and they would have pushed for an immediate purse bid right after that September weekend when Jacobs beat Sergio Mora and GGG stopped Kell Brook.
Because although I do think GGG is the A side regarding a potential fight with Jacob’s, I can’t imagine the WBA ruling being very relevant if GGG were to fight Mayweather. I can’t either, but that’s Mayweather. He’s one of maybe three active fighters on the planet (along with Canelo) who is bigger than the belts.
MISSING: DANNY GARCIA’S RESPCT
What up, Dougie?
On the heels of Danny Garcia’s latest excuse for a fight (Only 10 rounds? Does he have a later dinner reservation?), I’m laughing my ass off at guys like Errol Spence and Terence Crawford going out of their way to take shots at what a tomato can connoisseur Garcia’s become. In your memory, has there ever been a world champion so roundly dismissed by his fellow fighters? Also, have you ever seen a guy go from hero to zero the way Garcia has since beating Lucas Matthysse? My personal opinion is that the Herrera fight broke him mentally. He took what was supposed to be a victory lap in his “home country” (let’s ignore the fact that Puerto Rico is part of America and he was raised in Philly) and he was lucky to get the win by the skin of his teeth. I think that rattled him too bad to take on anything but baby food ever again. As for the Keith Thurman fight, I’ll believe it when they’re in the same ring.
Best. – Sean McDonough
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Sean.
Garcia’s been hammered in social media a lot worse than he’s ever experienced in the ring. I guess it’s a combination of soft or shopworn opposition (Salka, Malignaggi, Guerrero) and controversial decisions (Herrera, Peterson) in recent years. His dad’s loud mouth probably doesn’t help his appeal among hardcore boxing heads.
Garcia’s willingness to sit out for nine months (his last bout was the tougher-than-anticipated decision over Guerrero in January), inability to make somewhat marketable matches against former beltholders (and decided underdogs), such as Andre Berto and Kermit Cintron, and finally his decision to come back against a gross no-hoper like Sammy Vargas next month has not endeared him to the boxing community – and that includes his PBC peers.
Personally, I’m not that offended by Garcia’s career choices. I think he’s wasting his prime years (like a number of PBC Players) but I don’t feel strongly enough about it to bother ridiculing him on social media (or in this column). I think he’s a nice guy and was a very good junior welterweight that walked through the proverbial gauntlet from 2010 to 2013. I even like the dad. I won’t pay much attention to him in November but I will if and when he faces Thurman (and I do think that fight will happen).
In your memory, has there ever been a world champion so roundly dismissed by his fellow fighters? Yeah, there’s always somebody that everyone hates in boxing. How many hardcore fans are fond of Canelo? He’s been ripped to shreds in the Boxing Twitterverse since inviting GGG into the ring after icing Amir Khan on May 7 and then abdicating his WBC middleweight belt 11 days later. And it’s not just fans that dissed him. Fellow fighters – mainly junior middleweights, middleweights and super middleweights (including Erislandy Lara, Billy Joe Saunders, Daniel Jacobs, Chris Eubank Jr. and Gilberto Ramirez) – basically called him a “punk” in various interviews. (Of course, I have to point out that all of these guys are b__ch-ass hypocrites, but that’s a rant for another mailbag.) And I don’t know if you pay attention to Spanish-media interviews with former champions/hall of famers from Mexico, but all of these badasses – from Chavez Sr. to JM Marquez to Lupe Pintor and “Finito” Lopez – F__KING HATE Canelo. They think he’s an overpaid fraud with an attitude. It wasn’t much different with Oscar De La Hoya during The Golden Boy’s prime years in the mid-to-late 1990s.
Also, have you ever seen a guy go from hero to zero the way Garcia has since beating Lucas Matthysse? It was a fast fall from grace, wasn’t it? Only Mike Tyson plummeted faster after getting upset by Buster Douglass in early 1990. Garcia was on top of the boxing world at the end of 2013, and he was a joke by the end of 2014 (despite being the undefeated WBC/WBA/RING magazine junior welterweight champion).
My personal opinion is that the Herrera fight broke him mentally. He took what was supposed to be a victory lap in his “home country” (let’s ignore the fact that Puerto Rico is part of America and he was raised in Philly) and he was lucky to get the win by the skin of his teeth. I thought Herrera clearly won eight rounds in that fight, but I don’t think the controversial decision bothered him that much. He just chalked it up to his struggles with making the 140-pound limit (and maybe to some overindulgence during his post-Matthysse victory lap and the holidays). My guess is that he was a little burnt out (physically and mentally) after tough camps/fights with Kendall Holt, Erik Morales (first bout), Amir Khan, Zab Judah and Matthysse.
I think that rattled him too bad to take on anything but baby food ever again. I wouldn’t call Lamont Peterson “baby food.” And I certainly wouldn’t say that about “The Thurmanator.”
MENTAL ILLNESS IN BOXING
Hi Doug,
I’m a boxing fan and a low-level boxing practitioner when I can, I sincerely love the sport… I know, 100% that it takes a special person to get in the ring, box and fight, let alone do it so well that they are the best in the world. All praises due to these guys, they get my respect.
It doesn’t surprise me at all that some of these guys are crazy, this game ain’t for normal people; it only makes sense that at the elite level, the crazyness is more boiled down to specific variations of anomalies in social or general behavior. I’m no psychologist but I know that special spark in the eye when I see it …I see that s__t more when I watch fighters when they are OUT of their fight element. God Bless these warriors.
Here’s my point (and it might be applicable to all elite levels of society): It comes with the territory. It’s too easy to discount and brush these boxers off and call them idiots, ignorant, savages, when things go wrong.
Yes, Adrien Broner is a Jackass, abusive and full of s__t, but, for pay, he puts his essence on the line for our entertainment and as a boxing fan I feel like that’s MY Jackass and he should be treated as someone whom needs help and NOT discarded by society. Look at Mayweather, snapping on his own family, De La Hoya getting in women’s clothes, James Toney being James Toney (I couldn’t resist) – You get the point and you can grow this list of examples to a 3-page document
I want these guys to be treated as human beings and receive therapy or at least have state commissions give them a mental check up every now and then. These guys are getting concussed which only complicates s__t, exponentially, so the commissions should also let them “hit” that CBD.
Might you know how someone would be able to get these agendas in front of the right people? I can’t be the first person to bring this up… Perhaps fighters are simply FUCT, on their own like the rest of us…. –Sancho the Mack
I’m not sure where to begin on this issue. I guess I’ll start with my personal view on mental health. I think every adult should take care of themselves to the best of their ability, and they should be mature and humble enough to seek out help when they can’t do so on their own. Of course, when I say we should take care of ourselves, I mean physically, mentally and spiritually. I think we should all do things that enhance our overall health (proper nutrition, exercise and rest for the body; adequate intellectual stimulation for the mind; and religion/spirituality/special relationships/personal growth for the soul).
Boxers are people too. And I think they need to be as responsible for their mental health as they are for their career paths, physical preparedness/conditioning/prowess, and financial well-being. Obviously this means they have to mindful of head trauma, but they also need to be careful about what they put into their bodies (PEDs and recreational drugs) and who they associate with.
Fighters (active and retired) that are already experiencing mental illness or brain disease due to repeated concussions/blows to the head should seek out professional medical help (as lineal heavyweight champ Tyson Fury as recently done).
Right now, I think the best place for this kind of help in the U.S. is the Lou Ruvo Center for Brain Health at the Cleveland Clinic in Las Vegas, Nevada. Two and half years ago senators John McCain and Harry Reid helped organize fund-raising efforts among boxing and MMA power brokers (including Golden Boy Promotions, Top Rank, UFC and Viacom) for an ongoing study (which included, at the time, around 400 MMA fighters and boxers) on the effects of repeated head trauma among professional combat sports athletes. More than $600,000 was reportedly pledged by the MMA/boxing power brokers and, just as importantly, many of their fighters signed up to take part in the study.
Recently, one of my favorite people in boxing, trainer John Bray had to retire from training due to a number of neurological disorders (including Pugilistic Dementia, Alzheimer’s disease, Cavum Septum Pellucidum and CTE) due to the punishment his took during his extensive amateur boxing background, relatively brief pro career and long stint as a heavyweight sparring partner (to the likes of Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis). Bray, who is my age (46), was diagnosed at the Cleveland Clinic, which prescribed medication for him that has helped him control depression and wild mood swings that were plaguing his life.
Veteran boxing scribe Robert Morales wrote an excellent article on Bray’s brave fight for mental recovery and stability for the Long Beach Press-Telegram. You can read it here at the Los Angeles Daily News website.
You can learn more about the Cleveland Clinic by visiting their website where you can check out their various programs, such as the Keep Memory Alive organization that provides a lot of free information about brain health. If you feel strongly enough about this issue, I think you should make regular contributions (whatever you can afford) to the Lou Ruvo Center for Brain Health and follow boxing people that are open about their mental illness, such as Fury and Bray, on social media. Give them whatever moral support that you can offer. Do the same with Broner.
FLOYD FANBOYS
Hey Dougie,
I hope all is well.
Good response to the Floyd Fanboy on Monday. It makes me laugh how far Mayweather’s groupies will go to accuse other boxers of the very things they’ll deny Mayweather did.
I’m sure you’ve seen or heard about the video on fighthype, where he’s said he never had to use his A or B game… yeah, ok Floyd. You struggled to beat DeLaHoya, Castillo and Maidana because you weren’t trying. This actually lead to me arguing with a friend about how he would have done with the guys he avoided in 2007/ 2008, namely Cotto, Margarito and Paul Williams. I think Cotto would have been a hard fight but Floyd could win. Williams is an even harder fight. But Margarito? The guy who threw 100 punches a round and ate bombs from Cotto and Cintron and Clottey and Williams for breakfast? against a smaller, less hard punching Mayweather that was getting out worked, bullied and repeatedly pinned against the ropes by an old, part time dela hoya? I can’t see how Mayweather could have beaten him in 2007-2008. Specifically after he got beaten by Williams and realised his next loss could end him as a top tier welterweight, and pre leaving a part of himself in the ring vs Cotto.
What do you think?
Another funny thing; we’ve now got Floyd and Ward fanboys saying Brook exposed GGG and it shows why Floyd/ Ward would beat him, ignoring many different factors:
Brook is bigger than Floyd, hits harder, maybe has a better chin, and took the fight to GGG. The only thing offensively Floyd has on Brook (at this point) is hand speed. Other than that it’s a complete different fight. In that GGG would probably show Floyd even less respect than he showed brook and will go after him non stop.
The same way Ward is bigger than Brook and GGG, GGG would (probably) respect Ward’s power and strength more and not be so careless defensively, and not throw as many punches that could lead to him being countered or punching himself out. Ward would also fight a lot more cautiously than Brook did.
Anyways, keep up the good work!
Aaron Pryor Mythical match ups, all @ 140:
Pryor vs Chavez
Pryor vs Duran
Pryor vs Meldrick Taylor
Pryor vs Tszyu
Pryor vs Whitaker
Pryor vs Pacquaio
Pryor vs Mayweather
Pryor vs Mosley
Pryor vs De La Hoya
Also, how would he have done at 147 vs Hearns and Leonard?
Have a good weekend.
(PS – I’m a black fight fan, before anyone in the “demographic” gives me stick for being racist in going against the grain with Floyd 🙂 – CW, UK
Your skin color won’t stop the members of the “dummy-graphic” from calling you a racist and a sellout and a hater. Welcome to my world.
Regarding Mayweather’s latest FightHype interview, no I haven’t seen it. I haven’t read or watched a Mayweather article in its entirety since he shared his screwy views on racism in boxing late last year. I’ve got better, more constructive things to do with my time (like clip my toenails).
Here’s the bottom line on Mayweather and his diehard fan boys: they’re dips__ts. It’s a complete waste of time debating or arguing with them. (By the way, I agree that Mayweather at his best at welterweight could have beaten the prime 147-pound version of Cotto, although it would have been a very tough fight; and I agree that Williams and Margarito were just too big, too rough and way too busy for him to outpoint.)
I also agree with the differences you pointed out in the styles of Brook, Mayweather and Ward. Such observations are completely wasted on Floyd-huggers and “the Mental Ward.”
Finally, if Mayweather’s and Ward’s devout followers believe GGG was “exposed” by Brook they should encourage their heroes to get in the ring with the unified middleweight champ. Easy money, right? LOL. And if Mayweather is truly retired, then he should have no problem putting his super middleweight titleholder Badou Jack in with GGG. If “little bitty” Brook supposedly gave Golovkin fits, a solid super middleweight should have his way with GGG. Right?
As for Ward, I don’t think Golovkin is the fighter he need concern himself with right now. I have no idea why he continues to indulge goof-ball interviewers that continue to bring up GGG when he’s got the fight of his career coming up on Nov. 19. I know why his diehard fans are obsessed with GGG. (I wonder if they do?)
Your Aaron Pryor mythical matchups (all at 140):
Pryor vs Chavez – Pryor by close, maybe maj./split decision (great fight)
Pryor vs Duran – Duran by close decision, maybe late TKO (great fight)
Pryor vs Meldrick Taylor – Pryor by late TKO
Pryor vs Tszyu – Pryor by late TKO
Pryor vs Whitaker – Pryor by close, maybe controversial decision
Pryor vs Pacquaio – Pryor by close, maybe split decision (great fight)
Pryor vs Mayweather – Pryor by competitive but clear decision
Pryor vs Mosley – Pryor by close, maybe split decision (great fight)
Pryor vs De La Hoya – De La Hoya by close but clear decision
Also, how would he have done at 147 vs Hearns and Leonard? Hearns avenges his amateur loss with a mid-round KO; SRL stops The Hawk late.
Email Fischer at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at @dougiefischer