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Dougie’s Friday mailbag

Leonard got his revenge over Duran in New Orleans. Photo from The Ring archive
Fighters Network
12
Aug

DURAN, KOVALEV-WARD, ETC.

Wazzzup Doug-E:

Got room for one last summer Brawlbag?

  1. Ray Leonard as the Greatest Fighter Still Around? Oh why not. 2 out 3 over Roberto Duran. KO wins over Wilfredo Benitez and Thomas Hearns. One big win over Marvin Hagler (even though the jury is still out on that one). Pretty impressive stuff.

I still think Duran should have been the Big Uno. The dude kicked ass from lightweight all the way to middleweight. And against the best fighters too. Combine his power, skill, attitude and all those years he fought and you just can’t beat that. Plus, he beat a prime Ray Leonard when no one else could. And if Duran was a natural middleweight to begin with as opposed to a lightweight beefing up to middle would have Hagler and Leonard have beaten him since they had their hands full with him anyways. I say no, Bro.



Just my opinion. Not trying to bitch out or nothing like that. S__t, our good buddy Autosmell has Floyd as his entire top 5. In my top 10 ATG list of fighters still around I have Tyson Fury as 4 or 5 of them. Yes. That’s an obvious fat joke.

  1. Let’s rewind all the way back to Duran getting smashed by Thomas Hearns. Was Duran really spooked up by Thomas Hearns before that fight as mentioned? And would a rematch gone any differently if Duran fought Hearns the same way he fought Iran Barkley? Look I know Hearns was an explosive puncher but it’s kind of freakish how Duran would be so completely owned by the same guy who got flattened by Leonard, Hagler, and Barkley. 3 guys whom Duran either beat or nearly beaten.
  1. Kovalev-Ward. I notice that Team HBO is really hyping this one up as a serious Fight Of The Year candidate. Now I’m not even sure that this will be as good as Thurmo-Porter and it definitely won’t even come close to approaching Salido-Vargas. Especially if Ward nullifies Kov and makes it his usual tedious “fight.” Now if we do get some real fireworks here it will because The Mega-Krusher forced his will on Ward and made the “Son Of God” actually fight his ass off for a change. But if Ward shuts Kov down then we’ll be paying 50-60 dollars to fall asleep because we got another typical Ward fight. Fans will be chanting “RUFUND!!!’ while pounding the drums hard for their money back. Which seems to be the scenario following the last few PPVs. OK Bro I’m outta here. Thanks. – Captain Ron

Thanks for sharing, Cap. What can I say about the possibility of the Kovalev-Ward pay-per-view showdown not living up to expectations, other than “buyer beware”?

It’s a 50-50 match-up between unbeaten elite boxers, but given the boxer(s) involved and their styles/mentalities, it could turn into an uneventful fight – and if it does it won’t be the first time that’s occurred when two undefeated pound-for-pound players met in a ballyhooed pay-per-view showdown. Roy Jones Jr.-James Toney and Oscar De La Hoya-Felix Trinidad come to mind. (Now that I think of it, the PR folks of Main Events and HBO, who claimed that Kovalev-Ward is only the THIRD time two unbeaten P4P-ranked boxers have fought since THE RING has published its Pound-for-Pound Rankings, missed the Jones-Toney fight. They only mentioned Chavez-Taylor I and De La Hoya-Trinidad as previous occurrences.)

Anyway, if Ward neutralizes Kovalev over 12 rounds (and as a byproduct of doing so helps make for an uneventful fight), he did his job and he should get credit for it. Ward should not get all of the blame for making the fight “boring” if Kovalev can’t do anything about the American’s tactics. I felt the same way about De La Hoya, who was ripped by most fans and media for his tactics of avoidance in the late rounds against Tito. I admit that I was disappointed by Oscar at the time and thought the way he boxed the last three rounds made the fight legitimately close and also made it hard for him to complain about losing the controversial majority decision, but I also saved some of my criticism for Trinidad’s inability to cut the ring off on the celebrated boxer (and these opinions were published in local sports publications, by the way). With Jones, I just took my hat off to him for taming Toney (as did most fans and media at the time – few, if any, criticized the HBO darling for making for an uneventful super middleweight title bout).

Having said that, I don’t expect “fireworks” on Nov. 19 even if Kovalev is having his way in the fight. Kovalev is not a hardcore pressure fighter who is constantly cutting the ring off and throwing in high volume. He’s not Joe Frazier, Cap. The Russian is a methodical boxer-puncher. He can cut the ring off but he doesn’t do so at neck-breaking speed and he’s not as adept as it as Julio Cesar Chavez or GGG. And, as many fans pointed out prior to and after the Chilemba fight, Kovalev does most of his work from a distance. What we have here is a matchup of two boxers (one with world-class power, the other with world-class ring generalship). They are not sluggers. They don’t have a slugger’s mentality, so there’s no way it will be the kind of ring battle that Francisco Vargas and Orlando Salido delivered. If we’re lucky it will pan out the way Thurman-Porter did, but I doubt it because Ward can’t crack at 175 pounds the way Keith does at 147 and Kovalev doesn’t press as hard (or as awkwardly) as Porter does.

1.Ray Leonard as the Greatest Fighter Still Around? Oh why not. 2 out 3 over Roberto Duran. KO wins over Wilfredo Benitez and Thomas Hearns. One big win over Marvin Hagler. (Even though the jury is still out on that one) Pretty impressive stuff. Indeed. Leonard made the most of his 40-bout career by taking on the most respected fighters of his era when those noted rivals were viewed as “untouchable” (Benitez), “fearsome” (Duran), “lethal” (Hearns) and “the undisputed best” (Hagler). I’m an unabashed SRL fan because I idolized him as kid, but as I grew older and learned more about the sport I discovered that he truly earned his shot at Benitez by beating many skilled and talented RING-rated welterweights, such as Randy Shields, Andy Price, Pete Ranzany and Armando Muniz. Leonard dominated legit top-10 contenders (during a Golden Age for the 147-pound division) who had given other champs and legends of the sport hell.

I still think Duran should have been the Big Uno. I agree. Duran was No. 1 on my personal list.

file_180589_10_Duran-Barkley-bodyshot200The dude kicked ass from lightweight all the way to middleweight. His split-decision WBC middleweight title win against Iran Barkley (THE RING’s Fight of the Year for 1989) may be my favorite distance fight of all time. The craft the 37-year-old veteran exhibited is a joy to behold, and I never tire of it.

And against the best fighters too. Yup. I didn’t care much for Duran in the early ‘80s because he was Sugar Ray’s rival but I took note that he – and not the naturally bigger and more athletically gifted Leonard and Hearns – was the first superstar to step up in weight and challenge Hagler.

Combine his power, skill, attitude and all those years he fought and you just can’t beat that. Duran’s ring generalship and defense have always been underrated because of the passion he fought with during his youth, but nobody can deny his amazing longevity. He fought in five decades and notched 103 victories.

And if Duran was a natural middleweight to begin with as opposed to a lightweight beefing up to middle would have Hagler and Leonard have beaten him since they had their hands full with him anyways. I say no, Bro. That is a fascinating hypothetical question.

2.Let’s rewind all the way back to Duran getting smashed by Thomas Hearns. Awww, do we have to?

altWas Duran really spooked up by Hearns before that fight as mentioned? No, he had just allowed himself to balloon too much in weight and had to drain himself to make 154 pounds (the day of the fight). If anything, he didn’t take Hearns as seriously as he should have.

And would a rematch gone any differently if Duran fought Hearns the same way he fought Iran Barkley? No. I think Hearns sparks Duran even when Hands of Stone is at his best. It’s simply the way they match up in terms of styles, stature and mentalities.

Look I know Hearns was an explosive puncher but it’s kind of freakish how Duran would be so completely owned by the same guy who got flattened by Leonard, Hagler, and Barkley. 3 guys whom Duran either beat or nearly beaten. Styles make fights.

LEONARD NO. 1 LIVING FIGHTER?

Complete BS that Ray Leonard is the greatest living fighter. He may be the most popular, but an honest look at his resume’ says otherwise.

He didn’t win a major title until his 26th fight – Benitez; his career total is only 40 fights. He lost his first mega fight with Duran, then sat back and watched Duran drink, eat n party himself stupid for 4mos then fought n beat him in the rematch in month 5…”no mas”. Great fight, win vs Hearns; retired a couple of times, came back after a 3yr retirement and got Hagler at the very end of his career. Throw in some ‘celebrity’ rematches with Hearns n Duran, Larry Bond, Bruce Finch, Kevin Howard, a loss to Terrible Terry, voila, the great Sugar Ray L.

And he’s the greatest living? – Tony McBride

Arguably, yes!

If you think Duran deserves that spot, I agree with you (for reasons I detailed in my previous email response among others). If you want to go Old School and say it’s Jake LaMotta, I won’t argue with you. The Bronx Bull took on the best of boxing’s Golden Age, including Sugar Ray Robinson (six times), Fritzie Zivic (four times) and members of Murderer’s Row (the avoided African-American contenders of the ‘30s, ‘40s and ‘50s), such as fellow hall of famers Holman Williams and Lloyd Marshall, and Bert Lytell. You can file_171349_1_Julio_Cesar_Chavezeven go Mexican Pride on me and say it’s Julio Cesar Chavez, and I won’t give you too hard of a time. After all, JC Superstar fought the best from 130-140 pounds, won titles in three divisions, challenged a fellow great at welterweight and scored over 100 victories (going unbeaten in his first 90 bouts). Now, if I’m being 100% honest, I don’t even consider Chavez the “best” living boxer from Mexico, but I can understand anyone (especially Mexican fans) viewing him as Numero Uno because of his accomplishments and his impact on the sport.

What I don’t understand is how anyone can have a huge problem with Leonard being the top living fighter. He won Olympic gold and then fought – and beat – the best pro fighters of two glorious decades for boxing – the 1970s and ‘80s.

He didn’t win a major title until his 26th fight – Benitez So what? Duran didn’t win his first major title until 29th pro fight. What’s that got to do with anything? He beat EIGHT legit top-10 contenders (all rated in THE RING magazine, not just the WBC or WBA) on his way to facing Benitez, who was unbeaten in 39 pro bouts.

his career total is only 40 fights. So what? He made the most of his career. He did more in two years – Nov. 30, 1979 to Sept. 16, 1981 – than most of the pound-for-pound elite of the last three decades accomplished during their entire careers.

He lost his first mega fight with Duran So what? Duran is an all-time great and he was still at or near his peak when they first fought.

then sat back and watched Duran drink, eat n party himself stupid for 4mos then fought n beat him in the rematch in month 5…”no mas”. Yeah? And Duran’s sloth is somehow Leonard’s fault?

Great fight, win vs Hearns; retired a couple of times, came back after a 3yr retirement and got Hagler at the very end of his career. Hagler was the undisputed middleweight champ and a 3-to-1 favorite.

Throw in some ‘celebrity’ rematches with Hearns n Duran, Larry Bond, Bruce Finch, Kevin Howard, a loss to Terrible Terry, voila, the great Sugar Ray L. Good grief, some boxing fans are just d__ks.

THE WRONG FIGHTS BEING MADE

Hi Doug,

I’ve got a bee in my bonnet.

After recent news that the Ward/Kovalev fight is in jeopardy, Pacman chose Vargas, and negotiations for Garcia/Berto are underway, I’m finally jaded with boxing.

Fights keep being made that people don’t really want to see.

I’m usually a pretty patient person, but I’m crestfallen with the amount of mouth-watering contests that could have been but probably never will (until nobody cares anymore)

A few examples include:

GGG vs Canelo

Kovalev vs Ward

Pac vs Crawford

Pac vs (anyone who poses a real threat)

Haye vs (anyone who poses a real threat)

Rigo vs (any known quantity willing to step up to the task)

Instead, we’re forced to suffer through the likes of:

Kovalev vs Pascal 2

Ward vs Brand

Garcia vs Berto

Amir Khan vs Canelo (credit to AK though)

Haye vs Gjergjaj

Pac vs Top-Rank employees (and not the stand-out employees of the month)

Bob Arum said that Pac-Bradley made no money. No s__t, moron! Pac won the first 2 fights clearly. And now he seems satisfied to put Pac in with another guy that nobody cares about. It’ll be a good thing for boxing the day the cantankerous and antiquated Arum finally leaves the sport alone.

And Top Rank aren’t the only culprits. The growing inability with promoters and networks to exist collaboratively, combined with the rise of the ‘Diva’ fighter worries me. The popularity of the sport is going to take a nosedive if these ego-generated, money-hungry roadblocks aren’t removed.

The argument is that fighters have a short shelf life and need to go where the money is. And I agree to an extent. But if I can be selfish for a second, fans actually have a short life too. We only live for about 70-90 years! We waited 5 years for Mayweather/Pac? (in which time Pac lost twice.)

And now we have to witness 1-sided beat downs of smaller fighters, faded stars, and no-namers, with some old fart at a podium calling it a “tremendous and exciting match-up” or “a great test”.

The general gist of your Canelo defence is “be patient”. But how long do we have to wait? In all honestly, I’d rather find a new sport to follow then be treated like a fool. – Kevin (Vancouver, but from Dublin)

I think you should find another sport – at least temporarily – if boxing isn’t giving you what you want. Why waste your time watching fights that you don’t want to see? Why should you give a damn if the fighters that you have an interest in continually avoid significant challengers or are avoided by the top fighters in their respective divisions?

Hey, I didn’t pay much attention to boxing from 1982-‘87 because my favorite fighters (Muhammad Ali and Leonard had retired). I paid attention to some name fighters (such as Donald Curry and Hector Camacho) whenever I happened to catch them on TV or saw their pictures in the sports pages or on the covers of boxing magazines, but I paid more attention to comic books during that time because they were damn good! I didn’t come back to boxing until Leonard fought Hagler, and the emergence of Mike Tyson as a young heavyweight champ helped keep my interest until I discovered the rest of the boxing world of the late ‘80s. By the early ‘90s I had become a hardcore boxing junkie and I didn’t buy or read any comic books (because, for the most part, comics sucked ass during the ‘90s).

There’s no point in my trying to talk you into watching boxing if the sport isn’t delivering for you. Personally, I think there are too many good fights on tap to mention (next month is loaded) but that’s my opinion.

The only advice I can give you is to pay more attention to the up-and-comers and hungry gatekeepers/contenders – the fighters that are willing to challenge themselves against their equals or perceived betters (and are also willing to give 100% once the bell rings). There’s more to boxing than the “big-timers,” the future hall of famers like Pacquiao and the well-off former champs like Haye. It’s silly to think these guys are not going to behave more like businessmen than prize fighters at this stage of their careers. (But why would you care what they do? Pacquiao needs to be retired. Period. Crawford will beat him up so badly he’ll have to retire for good from boxing AND the senate. Haye’s been playing businessman since the Klitschko fight. So what if he wants to KO no-hopers on a cable network called “Dave”? You shouldn’t want to see “Haye vs anyone who poses a real threat,” you should want to see the guys who pose a threat – Deontay Wilder, Tyson Fury, Wlad Klitscho, Anthony Joshua and Joseph Parker – fight each other!)

I can understand your frustration with top fighters that are still in (or close to) their athletic primes, such as Danny Garcia, Canelo and Ward. Garcia is 28 and he’s lost a lot of momentum and respect in recent years. In many ways, he’s the poster child for the failure of the PBC. But I think he’s starting to realize that it’s past time for him to take on his fellow PBC standouts (at least that’s what he told RingTV’s Kendrick Johnson, and that’s what Showtime’s Stephen Espinoza told RingTV.com’s Mitch Abramson). We’ll see what happens in 2017. If you don’t want to wait for “Not-So Swift,” I don’t blame you.

If you don’t have the patience for Canelo or Ward, I get it, but I don’t agree with your frustration with them. I know you and everyone else wanted Canelo-Golovkin instead of Canelo-Khan in May. And you wanted Kovalev-Ward in January instead of Kovalev-Pascal II. But the truth and the bottom line is that Canelo and Ward were not ready for GGG and Krusher earlier this year. I understand if you want to rip them for making you wait, but at the end of the day THEY are the ones that have to climb into that ring and spend 12 rounds (or try to) against two hard-punching hardcore mother f__kers. Golovkin and Kovalev are not just world beaters, they are bone breakers. They won’t just beat you. They will beat the f__k out of you and potentially ruin your career (or whatever was left of it).

Maybe I’ve getting old and soft but I can understand Ward needing a couple fights to knock off rust and to acclimate to fighting at 175 pounds, and I can sympathize with Canelo (and Golden Boy Promotions) not wanting to rush into a GGG showdown before he knows if he can really hang at 160 pounds.

Fights keep being made that people don’t really want to see. Yes, but there are also fights between the top fighters of their respective weight classes being made that fans DO want to see. Do I have to mention the three Fight of the Year candidates that have taken place since June? Are you going to bother watching Roman Gonzalez-Carlos Cuadras, Linares-Crolla, Yamanak-Moreno II and Glowacki-Usyk next month or are these fighters/fights not “big time” enough for ya? (If so, I won’t bother mentioning Commey-Easter, Haskins-Hall or Soto Karass-Kamegai II.)

PREDICTABLE DEBATE

Hi Doug:

After seeing the first list about greatest fighters alive (6-10) I already knew this would lead to Duran and Leonard as numbers 1 and 2 either way. Also, I knew it would raise a lot of debate. As I predicted, I was right and Leonard was listed as number 1. There were positive responses supporting the list. Of course there were also negative comments, I’m expecting your next mailbag to be full of complains.

For me I have no problem with Leonard being the number 1. He has an impressive record to back it up. Having the best record against fellow 4 Kings, becoming successful in spite of eye problem, yes retiring a few times but returning with much great success plus an Olympic gold medal. Those achievements are legendary.

But I understand as well why many fans are sympathetic with Duran. Even before Leonard started his pro career by 1977, he was already a borderline HOF being the reigning 10X plus lightweight champion. By the time he first fought Leonard in 1980, he was already an ATG, first ballot HOF and considered one of best if not the greatest LW boxer ever. By the time Leonard was inducted into HOF in 1997, Duran was still actively fighting (what!). Maybe that kind of passion for boxing that was given by Duran earned him so much points from many fans.

What is your opinion with that Doug.

MM: Leonard and Duran vs Terence Crawford

Thanks. – Paul (from Philippines)

I think Leonard and Duran outpoint Crawford via clear unanimous decision (in competitive fights) at welterweight. (Duran probably stops Bud in the late rounds at lightweight.)

After seeing the first list about greatest fighters alive (6-10) I already knew this would lead to Duran and Leonard as numbers 1 and 2 either way. You didn’t have to be possessed by the ghost of Bert Sugar to figure that out, but you were correct. Good goin’!

Also, I knew it would raise a lot of debate. That it did but I consider that a good thing. I’ve enjoyed reading all the debate and related boxing banter in the Diqus comment section under the blog items on the list and under this column.

As I predicted, I was right and Leonard was listed as number 1. Way to go Nostradamus!

For me I have no problem with Leonard being the number 1. How can you? I don’t see how anyone over 40 that has followed boxing closely for the past four decades can have a problem with Leonard being No. 1. There are a few 30-somethings that want to argue that Roy Jones Jr. should’ve been considered the top dog, and while I can see Pensacola’s Finest being in the top 10, I don’t think what he accomplished can trump what Leonard did. Jones just didn’t fight enough future hall of famers at the right time.

But I understand as well why many fans are sympathetic with Duran. If you can’t sympathize with ole Hands of Stone you’re not really into boxing.

Even before Leonard started his pro career by 1977, he was already a borderline HOF being the reigning 10X plus lightweight champion. Right, I think you mean Duran had made 10 defenses of the WBA lightweight title before Leonard turned pro, and that is correct. By January 1978, when he stopped chief lightweight rival Esteban De Jesus to unify the WBA and WBC titles in their rubber-match (his last bout at 135 pounds), many boxing historians – even some of the grizzled ones that had seen the likes of Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong and Ike Williams fight – regarded Duran as the best lightweight ever.  

By the time he first fought Leonard in 1980, he was already an ATG, first ballot HOF and considered one of best if not the greatest LW boxer ever. Greatest lightweight, yes; first-ballot hall of famer, maybe; already an all-time great? No, no way. Perhaps after the Leonard victory some sports writers and historians considered him to be an ATG, but not prior to that victory.

By the time Leonard was inducted into HOF in 1997, Duran was still actively fighting (what!). True, but maybe he shouldn’t have been.

Maybe that kind of passion for boxing that was given by Duran earned him so much points from many fans. And members of the media, such as Yours Truly.

RINGTV CONTENT IS IMPROVING

Hey Dougie,

Just wanted to give a quick shout out to Thomas Hauser, his reporting on the ongoing turmoil surrounding the NYSAC has being the most insightful, well written piece of boxing journalism I’ve read on the RingTV.com website in a long time (apart from the mailbag of course J). I must admit, I’ve been a fan of his ever since I watched a documentary (it was on Sky Sports in the UK, may have been shown elsewhere) about the rivalry between Ali/Frazier. Between himself and the legendary Bert “the cigar man” Sugar I felt as though I could of actually been there to witness the tension between these two greats.

Also, I really enjoyed the “who is the greatest fighter alive” piece that has been drip fed to us each day, it’s a great topic of discussion, that was always going to cause debate and mudslinging, but I enjoyed it. I guess the point I’m trying to make is, other than the mailbag (which I’m addicted to) the website’s content is getting better and better. Has the Golden Boy given you a bigger budget? Lol

Final point, have you seen the size of Kell Brook since his mid training weigh in? He’s weighting 176 lbs and still looked ripped. That’s two stone over his normal fighting weight! How the hell did he ever make welterweight?! When the fight was announced I could not help but think ‘lamb to the slaughter’, but after seeing the size of Kell I’m starting to lean slightly away from him being completely dominated to thinking he could just pull this off. That could just be because I’m a Brit and obviously biased but, Kell has never been a speedster and I thinking his extra weight and timing could cause GGG more problems than he’s anticipating….

Anyway, keep up the good work. – Steve, Oxford, UK

Thanks for the kind words about RingTV.com and the mailbag column and thanks for sharing your thoughts, Steve.

Can Brook give Golovkin more problems than he’s anticipating? No. I don’t think so, but I think the Sheffield native can give GGG more problems than brook-golovkin_mailbagmost fans and boxing media are expecting. However, I won’t be shocked if Brook makes a fight of it. I’ve always been high on the Brit and I don’t think I’m alone in recognizing his athletic talent and boxing ability. Odds makers have “only” installed Golovkin as a 6-to-1 favorite. He’s usually a 10-to-1 to 15-to-1 favorite over legit top-10 middleweight contenders, like Daniel Geale or David Lemieux. He’s anywhere from a 50-to-1 to 100-to-1 over the “no hopers,” like Dominic Wade.

Obviously, Brook isn’t considered a “no hoper.” And he shouldn’t be considered a pipsqueak against GGG, either. I wasn’t shocked at all that Brook was over 10 pounds heavier than Golovkin 30 days out from their London showdown. A) Golovkin isn’t a big middleweight and he’s not the kind of guy to allow himself to blow-up in weight weight between fights. He generally weighs between 168-170 between camps. B) Brook is an athletic specimen. He’s not a slob between fights, he’s just got the physiology to lose a lot of weight and still perform at his peak. He’s “special,” like his nickname suggests, not unlike Terence Crawford, who somehow boils down to 135 or 140 and then rehydrates to 155-157 on fight night without being sluggish. I noticed Brook’s size and athleticism during a media workout the week of his

Photo by Naoki Fukuda

Photo by Naoki Fukuda

title challenge to Shawn Porter. He looked like a big junior middleweight to me. (In fact, I may have Tweeted these thoughts during the open workout.) On fight night (and I was close to the ring and the action as one of the commentators for the international broadcast), he was not only the bigger man, but the stronger man on the inside, and that’s saying something considering that Porter, who is built like a rock, began his pro career at super middleweight and gradually worked his way down to welterweight.

Just wanted to give a quick shout out to Thomas Hauser, his reporting on the ongoing turmoil surrounding the NYSAC has being the most insightful, well written piece of boxing journalism I’ve read on the RingTV.com website in a long time. Thanks Steve. Hauser is the best in the business (no matter what Kevin Iole says – LOL). I’ll pass your kind words along to Thomas.  

Also, I really enjoyed the “who is the greatest fighter alive” piece that has been drip fed to us each day, it’s a great topic of discussion, that was always going to cause debate and mudslinging, but I enjoyed it. That was the point of the list, the magazine article and the daily blog items on RingTV.com. Mission accomplished!

I guess the point I’m trying to make is, other than the mailbag (which I’m addicted to) the website’s content is getting better and better. Has the Golden Boy given you a bigger budget? Lol. No, it hasn’t – yet – but we do have some big plans for the website, which you will see by the end of the month.

 

 

Email Fischer at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at @dougiefischer

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