Dougie’s Monday mailbag
JACOBS VS. QUILLIN STOPPAGE CONTROVERSY
First I want to wish you and your family a very happy and safe holidays. Now to Boxing…..
1. I have a HUGE problem with the stoppage of the Peter Quillin-Daniel Jacobs fight Saturday Night. The referee never gave Quillin the benefit of the doubt. Quillin never went down. He was hurt, fine, BUT he was standing with his hands up ready to continue fighting. Ike Quartey was taking a pounding from Oscar De La Hoya in the 12th Round, and the referee let the fight go because he was fighting back. Quillin was fighting back, I was outraged by the Early Stoppage.
2. I know the referee’s job is to protect the fighter, I fully understand that, but he should also keep in mind that a fighter should also be given the opportunity to prove that he can recover and compose himself. Quillin should at least been given an 8 Count.
3. Thomas Hearns was given a count vs Marvin Hagler even though he was out on his feet, Mike Tyson was given a count vs Buster Douglas, he also was out on his feet and I can name 100 more fights where the fighter was hurt, out on his feet and still the ref gave him the opportunity and a chance to recover, that opportunity was never given to Quillin Saturday night, for a second there the referee looked like he didn’t know what to do and suddenly he stopped a fight with a fighter on his feet and his hands up…..Outrageous..!!!
4. You are a boxing genius and I would love to have your thoughts on the Fight and the Stoppage.
Thank you so much for your time. – Ozzie Martinez, Sanford, FL
Thanks for calling me a boxing genius, Oz (a lot of folks in the industry just threw up a little in their mouths reading that line), but I don’t think you’re going to agree with what I have to say about the Jacobs-Quillin fight and the stoppage.
I think Jacobs legitimately scrambled poor Kid Chocolate’s neurons to the point that the slight odds/media favorite could not adequately defend himself. I believe that referee Harvey Dock was well within his rights (and more importantly, his responsibility as the third man in the ring) to stop the fight in order to prevent Quillin from being seriously hurt.
As a fan, I was disappointed that the fight – which looked like a 50-50 matchup and a good clash of boxer-puncher styles on paper – only lasted a half a round. However, as someone who has witnessed fighters physically/psychologically ruined by taking too much punishment in fights that were allowed to last longer than they should have, I can live with Quillin not getting the opportunity to prove that he could have survived the round and recovered enough to threaten Jacobs.
I’ll answer your questions in order:
1) I think Dock tried to give Quillin the “benefit of the doubt” but Jacobs jumped on his wounded foe too fast and too hard for Quillin to visibly recover or for anyone to have time to assess if he was OK to continue. Quillin never went down but although he was able to keep his hands up, I disagree that he was “ready to continue fighting.” Why? Because he couldn’t defend himself from Jacob’s fast power punches. And he barely threw anything back. That’s the key reason you can’t compare Quillin with Quartey in Round 12 of the De La Hoya fight.
Quartey was dropped by a beautiful hook from the Golden Boy at the start of that round, but he was down for less than a count of “2.” He popped right back up with clear eyes and his legs under him (otherwise he wouldn’t have been able to get up that quick). If Quartey’s legs were not 100%, at least he had the sense to go to the ropes and use them to lean against and rest on until they were all the way back. And while Quartey was up against the ropes he fired back with both hands. Quillin didn’t do that against Jacobs. After getting hurt by the first big right that Jacobs landed, Quillin was forced to the ropes for just a second or two and then he tried to punch off of them. He landed one half-blocked hook, fell into a partial clinch and then swatted at Jacobs with two or three short rights (that were mere arm punches). That’s it. He didn’t offer any more offense than that. Quartey let his hands go at the same time De La Hoya was trying to close the show. After one minute had elapsed in the final round, both welterweights were arm wary/gassed and they basically ran out the clock standing in front of each other. After Jacobs landed his second big right hand (this time to the temple) Quillin was in a shambles. It was like he was wearing roller skates. Dock did what needed to be done.
2) New York is one of the seven states that still allows what is known as the “Standing 8 Count” (not to be confused with the Mandatory 8 Count that referees give fighters after a knockdown). However Jacobs-Quillin was a WBA title bout that took place in the U.S., so it was governed by Unified Rules of Boxing, which does not allow Standing 8 Counts. All four major sanctioning organizations (WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO) did away with the Standing 8 Count for safety reasons a couple decades ago.
3) I don’t mean to totally discount your opinions, but I think you’re comparing apples to oranges by bringing up the Hagler-Hearns and Douglas-Tyson stoppages. Yeah, the referees in those fights issued counts, but both Tyson and Hearns had been knocked to the canvas. The referees were counting as Tyson and Hearns struggled to get to their unsteady feet. Both fighters groggily brought themselves to an upright position as the refs tolled “10” and the fights were rightfully waved off. (Hearns actually got to his feet around the count of 9, or 9 and half, but it took Richard Steele less than a second to determine that the Hitman was done.)
4) Well, now you know my thoughts on the matter. I hope you still consider me a boxing genius (’cause you’re the only one!)
THE REALITY OF JACOBS-QUILLIN
People were very quick to criticize Danny Jacobs chin with regards to his loss to Dmitry Pirog (a real fighter) and his being caught (likely off-guard with the favor subsequently returned) by the light hitting Sergio Mora…but Quillin got a semi- gift draw against Andy Lee (a guy he wouldn’t beat more than once in ten tries) and its no shock he got beat up on Saturday. I was stunned to see The Ring experts favor Kid Chocolate 15-4 when Danny could have likely out-boxed Quillin for 12 rounds based on his overall skill set.
Look at the pedigree…it can’t be dismissed that Jacobs was an amateur standout with literally 100 more amateur fights than Quillin.
Also of note, the Showtime broadcasting team quote to the tune that Jacobs can now boast a better win in Quillin than anything on GGG’s resume is nonsense (I understand the applicable network allegiances). Says here that if Quillin fought Geale, Lemieux, and Murray he would not have swept all three. I can make the case that he goes no better than 1-2 vs these three and wouldn’t be shocked if he lost all three. I am glad Al Bernstein had the integrity to calm this talk by pointing out that at least Murray was on par with Quillin.
Ultimately it was a nice win for Jacobs…the quick Kayo is the huge shocker but the result of a Jacobs W is not! Where does he go from here? Would you prefer to see him against the Lee-Saunders winner (I’m a huge Lee fan) or go straight to GGG? Even with the Pirog loss, based on Jacobs body of work–both pro and amateur–he is likely the best fighter GGG would have faced to date. How do you see that fight playing out?
Conversely, where do you see Quillin going from here? I think he has done a nice job of crafting a nice career for himself despite limited amateur experience–and his Al Haymon relationship has paid dividends for him. Of The Ring Middleweight Top 10 Rankings I am unfamiliar with Soro but, other than that, I can see anyone else on the list beating Quillin and Kid Chocolate winning no better than 2-3 fights against that lot. He has experienced great earnings and a nice career for his overall experience but has not necessarily been active enough against the right competition. – Dan
I don’t think Quillin needs to hang up his gloves yet, Dan. Jacobs caught him early and knew how to force the stoppage. Quillin did not know what to do in that situation. Taking a knee (as Chris Algeri did during his near-disastrous opening round against Ruslan Provodnikov) may have enabled him to regain his bearings and make it to the first bell, but the poor lug was lost.
But maybe he will learn from this experience. I still consider Quillin to be a top 10 contender (a lower top 10 middleweight, though). If he fought another legit contender in his very next bout, he probably would lose. Michel Soro (THE RING’s No. 10 middleweight, who can also fight at 154 pounds) is a sharp-shooter. The Euro champ could zap Kid Choc. I’d favor No. 9-rated Chris Eubank Jr., too. But I’d still tab Quillin to beat old foe Hassan N’Dam (No. 7) and I think he’d be too much for Daniel Geale (No. 8) at this stage of the Aussie’s career.
It will be interesting to see how Haymon moves Quillin in 2016.
I was stunned to see The Ring experts favor Kid Chocolate 15-4 when Danny could have likely out-boxed Quillin for 12 rounds based on his overall skill set. Ain’t we a bunch of silly ass Dumbos? I’m surprised anyone bothers to come to this site. Seriously, though, I think most folks thought Jacobs was a live underdog at the very least. We just overestimated Quillin’s power (and chin), and underestimated Jacob’s power (and killer instinct). We knew Jacobs was the better boxer, but we’d never seen him stop a legit top-10 contender. Well, we have now.
Also of note, the Showtime broadcasting team quote to the tune that Jacobs can now boast a better win in Quillin than anything on GGG’s resume is nonsense (I understand the applicable network allegiances). Agreed. But we may as well get used to GGG obsession whenever middleweight title bouts are televised on HBO or Showtime. On HBO, GGG’s home, the mantra is “Will you fight Golovkin?” as soon as the winner has his hand raised. On Showtime we’ll get the obligatory GGG diss session. It’s gonna be this way until the remaining titleholders get into the ring with Golovkin.
Says here that if Quillin fought Geale, Lemieux, and Murray he would not have swept all three. I agree.
I am glad Al Bernstein had the integrity to calm this talk by pointing out that at least Murray was on par with Quillin. Bernstein is a pro’s pro and a class act.
Ultimately it was a nice win for Jacobs…the quick Kayo is the huge shocker but the result of a Jacobs W is not! Where does he go from here? Would you prefer to see him against the Lee-Saunders winner (I’m a huge Lee fan) or go straight to GGG? He’s not going to go straight for GGG. If the Lee-Saunders winner is the best available opponent for Jacobs in the first half of 2016, that’s the fight I want to see.
FUENTES VS. RODRIGUEZ
You need to watch that fight. FOTY candidate?
Bye. – Alastair
I watched it and it was an excellent junior flyweight 12-rounder, definitely a Fight of the Year candidate (the second FOTY candidate in a row for Francisco Rodriguez Jr., who thrilled hardcore heads with his punchfest vs. Katsunari Takayama last year).
Moises Fuentes definitely deserved the split decision, though. Although Rodriguez was able to match effort and guts with the older Mexico City native, Fuentes had the better technique, footwork and more snap on his punches. I loved the way he worked angles whenever he got in the younger man’s grill.
If Wladimir Klitschko and Tyson Fury fought with one-fourth of the passion and effort these tiny badasses fought with on Saturday everyone and his momma would’ve declared that heavyweight bout as the Fight of the Year.
AL HAYMON AND KID CHOCOLATE FAVORITISM
I found your mailbag about 4 months ago and it has been a god-send, thank you for your work, and enhancing my perspective on boxing.
I felt compelled to write in with regards to the boxing match in New York, New York I watched this past Saturday. I decided that I had to write to you (instead of other boxing scribes that I read) because you work for The Ring, a magazine/website that is not owned or associated with Al Haymon.
How about that fight, though? I got in trouble with my girlfriend for yelling while she was on the phone with her mom. When the camera cut to Jacob’s son I couldn’t continue to contain myself and made the situation worse, cheering and jumping like a lunatic.
It was everything you want in a prize fight going in. Two guys at the top of their game. Two guys at the top end of their division. And you have two guys who came to fight!
I was crossing my fingers, hoping that Jacobs would win. I thought that he had a slightly better boxing IQ, and I also thought he had an edge in power with the way that he delivers it. I was worried about his suspect chin (people are suspecting it, so I am calling it suspect, no offense Daniel). When he caught “Kid Chocolate” part way through round one you could feel the sigh of relief in Barclays all the way through my TV in California. I was nervous as he unloaded on Quillin, thinking he may ‘gas it’ and leave it all in the ring before the first bell sounded. But he was landing! This is not to the detriment of Quillin who was bobbing and weaving (sometimes even returning fire!) and hanging in there like a warrior – but Jacobs was giving him the business.
Then the ref jumped in… they were not holding, there was no foul, nothing that would warrant a penalty, but there he was, splitting them up. ‘The Miracle Man’ jumped right back on Quillin (who had obviously recovered significantly during the brief break) and Quillin was game to exchange punches with Jacobs in his improved state. And then came the hard right hand from Jacobs – then another – and Quillin was staggering towards the corner. At this point we see the ref again, pushing Jacobs back and away from his opponent. What gives? Again I saw no foul, no reason to penalize either man. The ref looked as if he was going to let the match continue once more after an unexplained break in the middle of the round. Peter then demonstrated to the referee that he was able and willing to continue in the fight, but it was in vain. The problem was that there was no knockdown, there was no reason that he should need to demonstrate his willingness and ability to continue, there was no reason for him to have gotten the break! The ref looked like he had an epiphany and stopped the fight for good right there.
This fight reeked. How badly did PBC and Showtime want Quillin to win? Am I going deaf or did Showtime’s announcing squad seem to miss the illegal breaks by the ref? It seemed to me that the ref was doing everything he could to help Quillin win, and at the last moment, realized how obvious it was and cut his losses. I understand that there has been a lot invested in Kid Chocolate and his future. He has been protected and showcased for as long as I have watched him (ok, call me a newbie). He is the Adonis Stevenson of the middleweight division. PBC needs a heavily publicized and dominant champion in popular weight classes in order to be successful. Tell me I am crazy, tell me the fix was not in, but do not tell me that this fight didn’t seem unusual in how it played out. If this would have gone the distance it would have been a robbery for Quillin. If Jacobs had been rocked during the fight it would have immediately been waived off.
Please tell me I am wrong and offer some clarity. – Andy V., Bay Area, California
Thanks for the kind words about the mailbag column, Andy, and thanks for sharing your thoughts, although I can’t tell if you’re happy or disgusted with the way the fight played out. I guess it’s a little of both. You’re happy that Jacobs won, but you’re disgusted because you think the ref, Showtime and the PBC were all pulling for Quillin.
I gotta disagree with your perspective. Quillin might have been the slight media and odds favorite going into this fight but I wasn’t aware of any Kid Chocolate favoritism during the negotiations or during Showtime’s promotional build-up to the event. Jacobs is also a Haymon-advised/PBC fighter, and more than a few industry folks who work closely with Haymon view the well-spoken/mannered Brooklyn native as more promotable/marketable/presentable than “Quirky Quillin.”
Am I going deaf or did Showtime’s announcing squad seem to miss the illegal breaks by the ref? It seemed to me that the ref was doing everything he could to help Quillin win, and at the last moment, realized how obvious it was and cut his losses. There was nothing “illegal” with Dock’s breaks in the one-sided action. The first time the referee broke them up was because there was a clinch (initiated by Quillin). The second time Dock got between the fighters was after Quillin was badly rocked by Jacob’s temple shot. Dock was looking at Quillin’s wobbly legs (probably thinking the big middleweight was on his way to the canvas or into the ropes – which would have actually been a good thing for Kid Choc). He stopped the fight after getting a good look at Quillin’s eyes (which were practically crossed).
If this would have gone the distance it would have been a robbery for Quillin. If Jacobs had been rocked during the fight it would have immediately been waived off. We’ll never know, Andy. And I give all the credit to Jacobs.
Contrary to what the majority of boxing experts were anticipating, I knew with certainty Jacobs would get the tko, and was pretty sure it would happen in the first round…that’s the old school banana in the tail pipe, faint with the jab, over hand right. Floyd was a master of that. Wish it would have continued…..standing eight count, but can’t argue what stoppage. But does that mean now that, with GGG starpower growing, and a new budding star with a cancer surviving backstory making a big statement. Middleweight is heating up, but the lineal champ refuses to fight above 154. Can “Lineal” champ be stripped of that recognition for not fighting in the weight class they are the suppose to be the champion of? Public opinion would surely favor GGG as far as who the best middleweight in the world is. How long can Canelo, amongst others, get away with that bull s__t Dougie?
Jacobs is a big middleweight too, and I would love to see him and GGG get it on in what would likely be another easy 1st round KO for Jacobs. But with the health risk of going down in weight, and for the simple fact that weight classes and exist for the purpose of fairness, shouldn’t Canelo lose his title recognition if his next fight isn’t at 160. Imagine if all the weight classes were being allowed to do that by the sanctioning bodies…..on second thought I guess they do…with clusterf__k of champions that already exists, shouldn’t the so called lineal title only be valid for the actual weight class and the fighters therein its suppose to represent? – Adam from Hayward
The lineal title goes to whoever beats the man who beat the man who beat the manÔÇª and so on. (In the case of the middleweight division the lineal championship recognition was restarted by Bernard Hopkins when he unified all four major sanctioning organization titles. He lost – controversially – to Jermain Taylor who lost to Kelly Pavlik who lost to Sergio Martinez who lost to Miguel Cotto who just lost to Canelo Alvarez.)
If the lineal champ works out a catchweight deal with a challenger (as Cotto did) and loses, the lineal championship recognition still goes to the winner.
Contrary to what the majority of boxing experts were anticipating, I knew with certainty Jacobs would get the tko, and was pretty sure it would happen in the first round. Yeah, sure you did.
Middleweight is heating up, but the lineal champ refuses to fight above 154. Can “Lineal” champ be stripped of that recognition for not fighting in the weight class they are the suppose to be the champion of? The only way a lineal champ loses his “title” is in the ring. It’s not an actual title that can be stripped for whatever reason. It’s a recognition. And you’re jumping the gun on Alvarez. Despite whatever statements he made prior to fighting Cotto, he has yet to defend his RING/WBC/lineal titles. If he wants to come in well under the 160-pound limit that’s his prerogative. If he demands that all of his challengers have to weigh in below 160, then we have a problem. But let’s cross that bridge when we get to it.
Jacobs is a big middleweight too, and I would love to see him and GGG get it on in what would likely be another easy 1st round KO for Jacobs. Yeah, right. I dare you to put your money on that prediction, Nostradamus.
JACOBS & THE MIDDLEWEIGHT DIVISION
Hey Doug,Now that puts a spin on the middleweight division. Danny Jacobs’ stunning KO over Peter Quillin is the kind of statement a guy has to make to become a player in the game. Even though it was a short fight, you can see what a man is made of in the way he finishes his opponent when the opportunity is there, especially if it’s a quality fighter like Quillin.
Now, do I think a rematch would clear things out? Yeah, I do, I think a guy like Quillin should be given the opportunity to fight back. I’ve seen fighters in worst condition than Quillin come back and win fights. But hey, I’m sitting on my couch, I’m no referee. The replay clearly indicated that the ref took a hard look at Quillin’s eyes and saw something that indicated that he had to stop it. They’re trained for that, to save lives in the ring. I’m not trained for that, that’s why I’m alright with the stoppage. As a matter of fact, I prefer seeing a fight like this, with an exciting KO, over borefests featuring the likes of Rigo, Klitschko, Ward or Floyd.
Now, Showtime was s__ting all over GGG trying to make Jacobs victory seem bigger than it actually is. Yes, it’s a significant victory over a top 5 contender, but hasn’t GGG been doing that for years now? The difference between Golovkin and everybody else in boxing is the consistency, dominance and skills displayed. He didn’t get knocked down by feather fisted Willy Monroe did he? As far as I remember Jacobs was on the canvas vs old soft punching Mora. Don’t mistake one victory for something it ain’t. Jacobs at the most, is the second-best middleweight in the world, and that’s if I put him over Canelo, which to be fair, is kinda hard for me, as Canelo does look like a better overall fighter than him. But mentioning him with GGG? Come on, pass the dope.
Alright man, that’s all I got. By the way I think fighter of the year goes to either GGG or Canelo. Cheers. – Juan Valverde
Tyson Fury’s got my vote. He won the heavyweight championship in a crap fight but upsetting Wladdy K. is the most significant accomplishment of any fighter in 2015 in my opinion.
Canelo is THE RING/lineal middleweight champ, but I rate both GGG and Jacobs ahead of the Mexican redhead because their entire careers have been at 160 pounds. Alvarez just got here and he beat a junior middleweight to win his titles. Still, I think the 25-year-old boxer-puncher can beat most of THE RING’s middleweight top 10.
The replay clearly indicated that the ref took a hard look at Quillins eyes and saw something that indicated that he had to stop it. They’re trained for that, to save lives in the ring. I’m not trained for that, that’s why I’m alright with the stoppage. Thank you for being a reasonable hardcore fan.
Showtime was s__ting all over GGG trying to make Jacobs victory seem bigger than it actually is. Yes, it’s a significant victory over a top 5 contender, but hasn’t GGG been doing that for years now? Yes, he has. Again, thank you for being a reasonable hardcore fan.
IF BOXING WAS A ONE-ROUND SPORT
Keeping it short. A question unrelated to the weekend’s fight:
If boxing was only a 1-round sport (for a total of 3 minutes per fight), who would be in your top 5 pound for pound among active boxers and retired boxers, respectively, in such a format where conserving energy or gassing out aren’t factors?
Keep up the great work! – Kasper from Denmark
Weird question, but a fun one. Among retired (or deceased) fighters my top five is Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson, Thomas Hearns, Joe Frazier and Edwin Valero. (I don’t need to explain why, do I?)
Among active fighters, my top five is comprised of a trio of dynamic punchers (who are at their best when blitzing their competition) Deontay Wilder, Adonis Stevenson and David Lemieux; and two well-rounded boxers who earned Nos. 4 and 5 with their most recent fights, Naoya Inoue and Daniel Jacobs.
Email Fischer at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at @dougiefischer