Dettloff: What makes the Klitschkos so dominant?
Posted Dec. 20, 2009 at 08:49pm
By William Dettloff
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If you didn’t know better, you’d think The Brothers Klitschko, who even Democrats and Republicans can agree are the best heavyweights in the world, are as adept at slipping Valium into their opponents’ water bottles as they are at jabbing loose their precious spinal cords.
Consider: in his last four fights, Vitali, 39-2 (37), has beaten Sam Peter (KO 8), Juan Carlos Gomez (KO 9), Chris Arreola (KO 10), and Kevin Johnson (W 12). This after not having fought in four years, or since stopping Danny Williams (KO 8) in December 2004.
In the 39 rounds he‘s fought since ending his retirement, you can make a case that Vitali has lost maybe a round or two. That’s if you take a point or two from him just for looking like a dork even as he batters guys senseless.
Little brother Wladimir, 53-3 (47), the world heavyweight champion, lost to Lamon Brewster in April 2004, and has since won 11 straight, eight by knockout. His better victims include Chris Byrd (KO 7), Calvin Brock (KO 7), Sultan Ibragimov (W 12) and Ruslan Chagaev (KO 9).
You can make a case for Wladimir having lost one or two of those 35 rounds if you are recovering from a severe head injury, rode the short bus to school every day, or are Gale Van Hoy.
These two are getting close not only to cleaning out the division, but wiping out an entire generation of heavyweights. That’s how dominant they are. Yes, they’ve lost -- Vitali to Byrd and Lennox Lewis, Wladimir to Ross Puritty (!), Corey Sanders (!) and Brewster.
But they have one another’s backs: Wladimir twice annihilated Byrd, and Vitali avenged Baby Brother’s losses to Puritty and Sanders (Wlad also beat Brewster in a rematch).
If Lewis hadn’t retired after beating Vitali, he certainly would have faced Wladimir, if not Vitali in a rematch. And who knows what would have happened?
All of this success despite what we see when they’re in the ring: Wladimir’s eyes get bigger than Floyd Mayweather’s ego when a guy gets in the same zip code and threatens to land a punch. And when it comes to opening up, he’s shier than a newborn rabbit. What’s he so worried about?
Meanwhile, Vitali makes Jess Willard look like Willie Pep. Let’s put it this way: graceful he ain’t. If Gene Fullmer were fighting today, he’d make fun of Vitali’s clumsiness. (Note: if you don’t get that reference, go to youtube after reading this column and watch some Fullmer fights. Rookie.)
Yet both guys keep winning. And winning. And not by a little.
It’s as baffling to us as it is to many of you, and don’t say the secret to their success is merely their size. If that’s all there is to it, Nicolai Valuev and Ty Fields would be among the best heavyweights in the world.
These guys aren’t getting touched lately. Even Lennox Lewis got hit sometimes.
To try and figure this all out, RingTV.com asked five knowledgeable fight game junkies why in the hell the Klitschkos are so dominant right now, and if they could have competed at a top level during other very strong heavyweight eras.
The respondents are Henry Ramirez, lead trainer for Chris Arreola, who lost to Vitali last September; Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, 1980s light heavyweight champion and trainer of 175-pound belt holder Chad Dawson; long-time fight game figure and matchmaker Don Elbaum, who has been involved with Philadelphia’s Eddie Chambers, who meets Wladimir in 2010; veteran West coast trainer Joe Goossen; and manager Steve Munisteri, whose fighters Obed Sullivan and David Bostice lost to Vitali and Wlad in in 1999 and 2000, respectively. Several of Munisteri’s other heavyweights have served as sparring partners for the Klitschkos.
Two notes: We have sneakers that are older than Ramirez, so we didn’t bother asking him about how the big guys would have done in other heavyweight eras. No offense, Henry -- it’s good to be young! Also, the responses have been edited for length and clarity.
Elbaum:
It’s amazing how they seem to be able to dictate everything. That slow left hand, that seems to hypnotize guys. And (their opponents) don‘t seem to have any fight plan to win. There are a thousand trainers but no teachers. (The Klitschkos) are not great fighters. They’re not. But they’re so head over heels over most fighters today. Most of the heavyweight contenders 20 years ago, forget about them. Forget about them!
If Primo Carnera was around today, he’d be the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. I believe he would beat the Klitschkos and anything else that’s walking around,. Most of the heavyweights today are as ordinary as can be. I do like (Alexander) Povetkin. I’ve always thought he had a shot with Wlad. I give him a hell of a shot. The most exciting thing around is David Haye, even though I thought Valuev won their fight. And Eddie Chambers is going to give Wlad a hell of a hard time. The only way Wlad wins is if he gets a German decision. And you can print that.
Ramirez:
They fight very tall, they lean back. They‘re great athletes. They’re tall, athletic and awkward. If anyone knew the answer to how to beat them, someone would do it. It’s so damn hard. I’ve heard everyone say you’ve got to do that, you’ve got to do this. But these are the best heavyweights in the world. During the Kevin Johnson fight Chris texted me and said ‘Hey, he didn’t fight me like this!’ Vitali was very flat-footed. It was because Chris was so aggressive and made him move and fight hard. He was very awkward doing it, but he still shut Chris out, you know? We were successful to some degree making him fight hard, but the guy never got tired. He never stopped boxing. There are people that wanted to criticize Vitali because it’s not entertaining, but it’s effective.
Mustafa Muhammad:
First of all, they know how to use their God given talent, which is reach. And their balance is always on. A lot of American fighters don’t work on their balance, which is the most important thing. American fighters don’t want to work on that. They just want to get in there and throw punches and they think that’s all there is to it. Balance is key to what the Klitschkos have. Plus their size. The height. Every imaginable advantage that they have, they use to a great degree.
Plus they had a lot of great amateur experience and good training. I don’t see anybody beating those guys in the foreseeable future. The only guys that could have competed with the Klitschkos would have been Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. The Klitschkos would have been competitive with those guys. No doubt about it.
Also, Americans have options. We can play basketball, we can play football, we can play variety of sports The guys behind the iron curtain, the first thing they want to do is fight. They’re born fighting. They train hard, they take it serious. The only guy (in America ) that I see train as hard as the Klitschkos is Floyd Mayweather Jr. He’ll fight you from the time the bell says ding until the bell says dong. I’ve seen him go one round for 20 minutes. That’s how the Klitschkos train.
Goossen:
One of the reasons Vitali came out of retirement in the first place is that he saw what everyone saw -- that Sam Peter was a 5’10” human bowling ball who had gotten progressively bigger and wider. He was ripe for Vitali. Juan Carlos Gomez is not a heavyweight -- he’s no taller than me and had been through a lot in Germany. He was perfect for Vitali. And did anyone ever confuse Chris Arreola with a smart boxer-puncher? He’s a wide open brawler who fights with a lot of enthusiasm. And he didn’t have a good camp. So it was just perfect matchmaking.
I won’t take anything away from them, but the matchmaking has a lot to do with it. But when the Klitschkos are on they’re the hardest guys in the world to fight for four reasons. One, they’re big, and two, they’re athletic. That’s a hard combination to beat when you’re heavyweight. Three, they’re one-punch knockout artists. Four, they fight with intelligence: They use good footwork. They’ll tie you up on the inside. They grapple and tie you up real well and then once they start tiring you out that way, they have that outside game. It’s hard to get by that one-two. Also, it’s hard to find guys that size that are very coordinated. When he was young Wlad moved like a middleweight.
Could they have competed in other eras? Well, Wlad lost to Ross Puritty, Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster. Guys no one would consider all-time greats in the heavyweight division. So I doubt he would be able to compete with that era. I think Scrap Iron Johnson and Amos “Big Train” Lincoln would have given them hell. But they would have been champions at some point. Pinklon Thomas was a champion. Jimmy Young could have been a champion. It would have been a lot tougher for them, but somewhere along the line both would have been champions. But it would not have been easy.
Munisteri:
Both of these guys have been beaten, so it’s not like they’re invincible. Wlad has been down on the canvas 12 or 13 times. If you look at Ali, he was 40 years old and had been floored three times. Vitali quit in the Chris Byrd fight, and he got stopped by Lewis. And remember, that was in the last fight of Lewis’ career when he was 38 years old!
They’re really good. They’re not invincible, they’re not the best ever. But there’re really good. My guys have told me that Wlad has super quick reflexes, is very fluid and has great technical skills and hits really hard. He’s probably a little more fragile than Vitali, and he’s probably not as physically strong. He’s an exceptionally talented athlete.
Vitali it’s more of a size thing and he’s more rugged. That’s 1/3 of the equation. That’s what they have. There’s another third and that has to do with genetics. One’s 6’6 ½” the other 6’ 7” and they have very long reach and they’re kind of like storks; they lean back and it’s so hard for a guy to reach him.
They have a very high skill level. There are other smaller heavyweights with a very good skill level, like Eddie Chambers, but when you put a 6’ 215-pounder with great skills against a 6’7” 250-pounder with great skills, logic tells you more times than not the bigger guy is going to win.
Plus, they’ve been very good about picking the right opponents as their challengers. They would compete in any era because of the size difference. They would compete not because they’re more skilled than those guys, but because they have good skill and are so much bigger.
Some random observations from last week:
Here’s a dare for Kevin Johnson: Watch Kelly Pavlik’s win over Miguel Espino, and watch how Espino, who had less chance than you did against Klitschko, fought hard to the end. That’s how fighters do it…
Why does everyone find it so funny and interesting that Espino was eating tacos when he got the call with the offer to fight Pavlik? Is that what passes for funny and interesting in boxing?…
Who knew Jesus Chavez was such a dirty, crazy little bastard?…
The trouble Paul Williams had with Sergio Martinez puts his showdown with Pavlik in a new light, doesn’t it?…
Don’t feel too bad for Hector Velazquaz. Do you know how tough you have to be to make it past the third round against Edwin Valero? Let’s take up a collection now for Antonio DeMarco. The man’s going to have some medical bills…
The news that Top Rank will be launching a series is only good if they put on good fights. Another awful series featuring Ty Fields or his Hispanic equivalent every other week won’t do anyone any good…
Believe me, if Bob Arum could find another Butterbean out there -- or, be still our hearts, a Hispanic version -- he’d be on every show. But then, whose fault was it that Butterbean was a cult hero? If he didn’t make money, Arum wouldn’t have used him. And you thought you have to be broke to be a hillbilly…
Bill Dettloff can be reached at Dettloff@ptd.net
Consider: in his last four fights, Vitali, 39-2 (37), has beaten Sam Peter (KO 8), Juan Carlos Gomez (KO 9), Chris Arreola (KO 10), and Kevin Johnson (W 12). This after not having fought in four years, or since stopping Danny Williams (KO 8) in December 2004.
In the 39 rounds he‘s fought since ending his retirement, you can make a case that Vitali has lost maybe a round or two. That’s if you take a point or two from him just for looking like a dork even as he batters guys senseless.
Little brother Wladimir, 53-3 (47), the world heavyweight champion, lost to Lamon Brewster in April 2004, and has since won 11 straight, eight by knockout. His better victims include Chris Byrd (KO 7), Calvin Brock (KO 7), Sultan Ibragimov (W 12) and Ruslan Chagaev (KO 9).
You can make a case for Wladimir having lost one or two of those 35 rounds if you are recovering from a severe head injury, rode the short bus to school every day, or are Gale Van Hoy.
These two are getting close not only to cleaning out the division, but wiping out an entire generation of heavyweights. That’s how dominant they are. Yes, they’ve lost -- Vitali to Byrd and Lennox Lewis, Wladimir to Ross Puritty (!), Corey Sanders (!) and Brewster.
But they have one another’s backs: Wladimir twice annihilated Byrd, and Vitali avenged Baby Brother’s losses to Puritty and Sanders (Wlad also beat Brewster in a rematch).
If Lewis hadn’t retired after beating Vitali, he certainly would have faced Wladimir, if not Vitali in a rematch. And who knows what would have happened?
All of this success despite what we see when they’re in the ring: Wladimir’s eyes get bigger than Floyd Mayweather’s ego when a guy gets in the same zip code and threatens to land a punch. And when it comes to opening up, he’s shier than a newborn rabbit. What’s he so worried about?
Meanwhile, Vitali makes Jess Willard look like Willie Pep. Let’s put it this way: graceful he ain’t. If Gene Fullmer were fighting today, he’d make fun of Vitali’s clumsiness. (Note: if you don’t get that reference, go to youtube after reading this column and watch some Fullmer fights. Rookie.)
Yet both guys keep winning. And winning. And not by a little.
It’s as baffling to us as it is to many of you, and don’t say the secret to their success is merely their size. If that’s all there is to it, Nicolai Valuev and Ty Fields would be among the best heavyweights in the world.
These guys aren’t getting touched lately. Even Lennox Lewis got hit sometimes.
To try and figure this all out, RingTV.com asked five knowledgeable fight game junkies why in the hell the Klitschkos are so dominant right now, and if they could have competed at a top level during other very strong heavyweight eras.
The respondents are Henry Ramirez, lead trainer for Chris Arreola, who lost to Vitali last September; Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, 1980s light heavyweight champion and trainer of 175-pound belt holder Chad Dawson; long-time fight game figure and matchmaker Don Elbaum, who has been involved with Philadelphia’s Eddie Chambers, who meets Wladimir in 2010; veteran West coast trainer Joe Goossen; and manager Steve Munisteri, whose fighters Obed Sullivan and David Bostice lost to Vitali and Wlad in in 1999 and 2000, respectively. Several of Munisteri’s other heavyweights have served as sparring partners for the Klitschkos.
Two notes: We have sneakers that are older than Ramirez, so we didn’t bother asking him about how the big guys would have done in other heavyweight eras. No offense, Henry -- it’s good to be young! Also, the responses have been edited for length and clarity.
Elbaum:
It’s amazing how they seem to be able to dictate everything. That slow left hand, that seems to hypnotize guys. And (their opponents) don‘t seem to have any fight plan to win. There are a thousand trainers but no teachers. (The Klitschkos) are not great fighters. They’re not. But they’re so head over heels over most fighters today. Most of the heavyweight contenders 20 years ago, forget about them. Forget about them!
If Primo Carnera was around today, he’d be the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. I believe he would beat the Klitschkos and anything else that’s walking around,. Most of the heavyweights today are as ordinary as can be. I do like (Alexander) Povetkin. I’ve always thought he had a shot with Wlad. I give him a hell of a shot. The most exciting thing around is David Haye, even though I thought Valuev won their fight. And Eddie Chambers is going to give Wlad a hell of a hard time. The only way Wlad wins is if he gets a German decision. And you can print that.
Ramirez:
They fight very tall, they lean back. They‘re great athletes. They’re tall, athletic and awkward. If anyone knew the answer to how to beat them, someone would do it. It’s so damn hard. I’ve heard everyone say you’ve got to do that, you’ve got to do this. But these are the best heavyweights in the world. During the Kevin Johnson fight Chris texted me and said ‘Hey, he didn’t fight me like this!’ Vitali was very flat-footed. It was because Chris was so aggressive and made him move and fight hard. He was very awkward doing it, but he still shut Chris out, you know? We were successful to some degree making him fight hard, but the guy never got tired. He never stopped boxing. There are people that wanted to criticize Vitali because it’s not entertaining, but it’s effective.
Mustafa Muhammad:
First of all, they know how to use their God given talent, which is reach. And their balance is always on. A lot of American fighters don’t work on their balance, which is the most important thing. American fighters don’t want to work on that. They just want to get in there and throw punches and they think that’s all there is to it. Balance is key to what the Klitschkos have. Plus their size. The height. Every imaginable advantage that they have, they use to a great degree.
Plus they had a lot of great amateur experience and good training. I don’t see anybody beating those guys in the foreseeable future. The only guys that could have competed with the Klitschkos would have been Larry Holmes, Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. The Klitschkos would have been competitive with those guys. No doubt about it.
Also, Americans have options. We can play basketball, we can play football, we can play variety of sports The guys behind the iron curtain, the first thing they want to do is fight. They’re born fighting. They train hard, they take it serious. The only guy (in America ) that I see train as hard as the Klitschkos is Floyd Mayweather Jr. He’ll fight you from the time the bell says ding until the bell says dong. I’ve seen him go one round for 20 minutes. That’s how the Klitschkos train.
Goossen:
One of the reasons Vitali came out of retirement in the first place is that he saw what everyone saw -- that Sam Peter was a 5’10” human bowling ball who had gotten progressively bigger and wider. He was ripe for Vitali. Juan Carlos Gomez is not a heavyweight -- he’s no taller than me and had been through a lot in Germany. He was perfect for Vitali. And did anyone ever confuse Chris Arreola with a smart boxer-puncher? He’s a wide open brawler who fights with a lot of enthusiasm. And he didn’t have a good camp. So it was just perfect matchmaking.
I won’t take anything away from them, but the matchmaking has a lot to do with it. But when the Klitschkos are on they’re the hardest guys in the world to fight for four reasons. One, they’re big, and two, they’re athletic. That’s a hard combination to beat when you’re heavyweight. Three, they’re one-punch knockout artists. Four, they fight with intelligence: They use good footwork. They’ll tie you up on the inside. They grapple and tie you up real well and then once they start tiring you out that way, they have that outside game. It’s hard to get by that one-two. Also, it’s hard to find guys that size that are very coordinated. When he was young Wlad moved like a middleweight.
Could they have competed in other eras? Well, Wlad lost to Ross Puritty, Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster. Guys no one would consider all-time greats in the heavyweight division. So I doubt he would be able to compete with that era. I think Scrap Iron Johnson and Amos “Big Train” Lincoln would have given them hell. But they would have been champions at some point. Pinklon Thomas was a champion. Jimmy Young could have been a champion. It would have been a lot tougher for them, but somewhere along the line both would have been champions. But it would not have been easy.
Munisteri:
Both of these guys have been beaten, so it’s not like they’re invincible. Wlad has been down on the canvas 12 or 13 times. If you look at Ali, he was 40 years old and had been floored three times. Vitali quit in the Chris Byrd fight, and he got stopped by Lewis. And remember, that was in the last fight of Lewis’ career when he was 38 years old!
They’re really good. They’re not invincible, they’re not the best ever. But there’re really good. My guys have told me that Wlad has super quick reflexes, is very fluid and has great technical skills and hits really hard. He’s probably a little more fragile than Vitali, and he’s probably not as physically strong. He’s an exceptionally talented athlete.
Vitali it’s more of a size thing and he’s more rugged. That’s 1/3 of the equation. That’s what they have. There’s another third and that has to do with genetics. One’s 6’6 ½” the other 6’ 7” and they have very long reach and they’re kind of like storks; they lean back and it’s so hard for a guy to reach him.
They have a very high skill level. There are other smaller heavyweights with a very good skill level, like Eddie Chambers, but when you put a 6’ 215-pounder with great skills against a 6’7” 250-pounder with great skills, logic tells you more times than not the bigger guy is going to win.
Plus, they’ve been very good about picking the right opponents as their challengers. They would compete in any era because of the size difference. They would compete not because they’re more skilled than those guys, but because they have good skill and are so much bigger.
Some random observations from last week:
Here’s a dare for Kevin Johnson: Watch Kelly Pavlik’s win over Miguel Espino, and watch how Espino, who had less chance than you did against Klitschko, fought hard to the end. That’s how fighters do it…
Why does everyone find it so funny and interesting that Espino was eating tacos when he got the call with the offer to fight Pavlik? Is that what passes for funny and interesting in boxing?…
Who knew Jesus Chavez was such a dirty, crazy little bastard?…
The trouble Paul Williams had with Sergio Martinez puts his showdown with Pavlik in a new light, doesn’t it?…
Don’t feel too bad for Hector Velazquaz. Do you know how tough you have to be to make it past the third round against Edwin Valero? Let’s take up a collection now for Antonio DeMarco. The man’s going to have some medical bills…
The news that Top Rank will be launching a series is only good if they put on good fights. Another awful series featuring Ty Fields or his Hispanic equivalent every other week won’t do anyone any good…
Believe me, if Bob Arum could find another Butterbean out there -- or, be still our hearts, a Hispanic version -- he’d be on every show. But then, whose fault was it that Butterbean was a cult hero? If he didn’t make money, Arum wouldn’t have used him. And you thought you have to be broke to be a hillbilly…
Bill Dettloff can be reached at Dettloff@ptd.net
