News

Dougie’s Friday mailbag

Photo by: Stephanie Trapp/ SHOWTIME
17
Feb

BOXING GETTING BETTER IN 2017

Doug,

My man. Seems like boxing keeps getting better in 2017. So many good fights getting made, not the least of which is Kell Brook-Errol Spence Jr. Can’t wait for that one. Wanted to get your analysis on a few upcoming bouts starting with this weekend:

Adrian Broner-Adrien Granados

I have narrowed my criteria for picking winners to boxing skill, speed, historical connect %, level of opposition, and hunger. I think Broner wins all categories here, except the last. And of course, that one gives me the most pause here because if Broner isn’t hungry he will get outworked. I have to pick him by close decision at home, but his 3:1 favorite status seems too wide. He won’t fade down the stretch like Amir Imam. How do you see this one playing out?

David Haye-Tony Bellew

I may be crazy, but I’m not sure how to read this one. Bellew has been on a streak, Haye has been out for years and has had two soft touches totaling a couple of rounds. Everyone says Haye KO early and maybe they’re right, but it seems like a hard one to call. I could see Haye playing it safe and winning by late stoppage or decision. Have you got a strong position?

Keith Thurman-Danny Garcia

This one seems like a no-brainer to me. Danny Garcia is slow. He has been facing weaker competition and appears less motivated. Thurman has the advantages in every category. I feel his only real hope at winning is a one hitter quitter. I think Thurman will bust him up over the long haul and win an easy decision. Am I underestimating Garcia? He looked pretty ordinary vs. Peterson and Guerrero.

Lastly… I am a gambling man. I won’t hold you to anything, but if you had to pick 5 upcoming fights or outcomes for me to consider as part of my parlay, which ones would you pick? For example, I feel very confident about Lamont Peterson, Ohara Davies, Demetrius Andrade, and Keith Thurman winning their fights. I also feel very good about the GGG fight not going the distance. Anything else you would suggest looking into? If I win big, I’ll buy you more than one beer in NYC during fight week, haha. – Vincent, Winston-Salem

I think Golovkin by stoppage is usually a safe bet, Vincent. Speaking of GGG, two of his former challengers face off on March 11 and I can’t see David Lemieux-Curtis Stevens going the distance. I have no idea who wins that middleweight bout but wherever the money line is in terms of rounds, I’d bet the under. The co-featured bout to Lemieux-Stevens is Yuriorkis Gamboa’s return against Rene Alvarado. Despite having been out of the ring for more than a year, I expect the dynamic Cuban to dominate the hardnosed but made-to-order Nicaraguan, and a stoppage is very likely.

I see Canelo Alvarez-Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. going the distance. I know some hardcore heads view this as the proverbial “gimme” fight for Alvarez, but I don’t believe Chavez will half-ass it in training and even if Canelo puts it on him during the fight, his pride, durability and natural size advantage will keep him upright through 12 rounds. I also expect junior middleweight prospect Erickson Lubin to make the transition to contender in impressive fashion when he faces Jorge Cota in their WBC title-elimination bout on the Thurman-Garcia undercard.

I have narrowed my criteria for picking winners to boxing skill, speed, historical connect %, level of opposition, and hunger. Sounds like sound criteria, but keep in mind that Broner’s boxing skill is overrated and Granados has faced a high-level opposition.

I think Broner wins all categories here, except the last. And of course, that one gives me the most pause here because if Broner isn’t hungry he will get outworked. Agreed, and this is a possible scenario, which is why this is an interesting matchup.

I have to pick him by close decision at home, but his 3:1 favorite status seems too wide. He won’t fade down the stretch like Amir Imam. How do you see this one playing out? I also favor Broner by decision in a competitive fight. I think moving the contracted weight limit from 142 pounds to 147 favors “The Problem” as much as the bout taking place in Cincinnati. I don’t think Imam “faded” against Granados. I think the streaking contender was pulled into a dogfight, overwhelmed and beat into submission. I believe that Broner is more durable and battle-tested than Imam was.

I may be crazy, but I’m not sure how to read this one. You’re not alone. Most UK boxing folks I’ve talked to give Bellew no shot against Haye. They believe the size and talent disparity is too great for Bellew to overcome, and I see where they are coming from but I view Haye as semi-retired. I wouldn’t be shocked if Bellew clipped or overwhelmed the former heavyweight beltholder.

Everyone says Haye KO early and maybe they’re right, but it seems like a hard one to call. I could see Haye playing it safe and winning by late stoppage or decision. Have you got a strong position? I do not. I’m just gonna sit back and enjoy this one for however long it lasts.

[Thurman-Garcia] one seems like a no-brainer to me. Danny Garcia is slow. He has been facing weaker competition and appears less motivated. I favor Thurman, but I don’t view his victory as a foregone conclusion. Garcia is very live in my opinion (and more than a few U.S. boxing scribes favor the former 140-pound champ). Garcia doesn’t look very fast, but he’s got quick reflexes (especially where counterpunching is concerned) and, more importantly, he’s got good timing. Trust me, he’s a threat.

Thurman has the advantages in every category. Really? What about quality of opposition? What about chin/durability? They seem about even in terms of skill and technique to me. Neither reminds me of a prime Donald Curry, if you know what I mean.

I think Thurman will bust him up over the long haul and win an easy decision. Am I underestimating Garcia? Yes, I think you are.

He looked pretty ordinary vs. Peterson and Guerrero. I agree, but I assume that he will be better prepared and more motivated for Thurman.

I feel very confident about Lamont Peterson, Ohara Davies, Demetrius Andrade, and Keith Thurman winning their fights. I favor those four too, but keep in mind:

Peterson has a lot of wear and tear on his body (plus he was inactive in 2016), while David Avanesyan is a tough cookie and in his prime.

Davies is the younger, fresher, naturally bigger man, while Derry Mathews appears to be on the downslide, but at the end of the day, the 25-year-old prospect only has 14 fights and has never been in the kind of battles the veteran has experienced.

Andrade could do just enough to suffer a home-country decision loss to Jack Culcay in Germany.

You know my thoughts on Thurman-Garcia.

 

JERMALL CHARLO AT MIDDLEWEIGHT

Hey Dougie!

Great job on the mailbag! Been a fan since your MaxBoxing days. Always look forward to Monday and Friday for your spread.

Just wanted to see what you thought of Charlo dropping his IBF 154 strap and jumping up to 160.

I think it’s a great move as he seemed huge for that division and it was doubtful that any other name fighters wanted to fight him.

Who would you like to see him fight at 160? I thought Andy Lee would make a good fight or the winner of Lemeiux/Stevens. I just hope that he doesn’t have any more showcase fights and goes straight to the top ten for a fight. Thanks. – Vin from Canada

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and for the kind words, Vin.

If Charlo and his team want to make a major statement at middleweight and get into the big-fight mix right away, I think the Lemieux-Stevens winner makes sense. A lot of fans will watch that HBO-televised bout on March 11, and the winner will be highly rated by the WBC and the IBF (which was the sanctioning organization of the 154-pound belt that Charlo held). If Charlo beats the Lemmy-Stevens winner he’ll have instant credibility at middleweight and will be in position challenge whoever holds the WBC and IBF titles later this year (I’m going to assume it will be GGG, but ya never know…)

I won’t be mad at Charlo or his team if he wants to get his feet wet first before jumping into the deep-end of the 160-pound pool. But after his middleweight tune-up, I’d like to see him in with a legit top-15 contender. There are many to choose from: Tureano Johnson, Sergiy Derevyanchenko, Ryota Murata, Chris Eubank Jr., Avtandil Kurtsidze, Hassan Ndam, Willie Monroe Jr., Rob Brant.

Just wanted to see what you thought of Charlo dropping his IBF 154 strap and jumping up to 160. I’m intrigued, and I’m glad that Jarrett Hurd and Tony Harrison will fight for the vacant IBF junior middleweight title.

I think it’s a great move as he seemed huge for that division and it was doubtful that any other name fighters wanted to fight him. Agreed. Charlo was a giant at 154 pounds. Sooner or later, he was going to hit the wall with making that weight. And given that two of the major beltholders at 154 pounds are his twin brother (Jermell) and Erislandy Lara (his longtime training mate who he shares head trainer Ronnie Shields with), it made sense to move up in weight.

 

THE DANGERS OF BOILING DOWN

Hi Doug,

Long time reader – your mailbags are always two highlights of the week. Thinking about Kell Brook coming all the way back down to 147 prompted me to write for the first time. I like him a lot but I fear for him.

It seems like dropping a division, let alone two, can be devastating for a mature fighter. I think of Roy Jones dropping to 175 from heavy – his reflexes and punch resistance had slipped hugely. When Chris Byrd made the same move, instead of being quicker and more mobile he looked like he was moving in mud. Ditto Oscar when he weighed 145 against Pacquiao – he was so much better even 2 lbs heavier against Floyd. None of them could pull the trigger like they used to. Each had become a significantly lesser fighter – in a way that you couldn’t just put down to aging.

You’ve seen many more fights than I have – what do you see as the dangers of boiling down? Can you think of any other cases where dropping back down in weight has been disastrous? Can you think of anywhere dropping down was hugely successful?

Cheers. – Charlie, LA

Thanks for the kind words and for finally writing in, Charlie.

I think the older a fighter is, the more dangerous it is for him to drop a significant amount of weight. Jones, Byrd and De La Hoya are all good examples. Jones was 35 years old when he dropped down from the solid 193 pounds (around 200 on fight night) for his showdown with John Ruiz back to light heavyweight, where he struggled to beat Antonio Tarver and then was iced in their rematch. (I covered both fights for MaxBoxing.com. Jones looked like a zombie at the weigh-in for the first bout with Tarver, his skin was gray; but he seemed OK at the weigh-in for the rematch, one of the reasons I tend to give Antonio more credit for his upset victory than many insiders and hardcore fans do.)

De La Hoya was also 35 (going on 36) when he dropped down from junior middleweight to face Pacquiao at welterweight. Byrd was 37 (going on 38) when he dropped from heavyweight to light heavyweight to fight Shaun George.

Keep in mind that Brook is 30 and still in his prime. Also keep in mind that unlike Byrd and De La Hoya, Brook hasn’t been campaigning at a heavier weight for years prior to dropping down. He went up to middleweight for one fight. Byrd, who fought George in 2008, had fought above 200 pounds since 1994. De La Hoya, who fought Pacquiao in late 2008, had been fighting above 147 pounds seven years (he weighed in at 154 pounds for Mayweather, not 147).

Jones, like Brook, climbed two divisions for one fight and then dropped back down. However, Jones had several months (under the guidance of fitness guru Mackie Shilstone) to literally bulk up. Brook, on the other hand, was a last-minute replacement for Chris Eubank Jr. He barely had eight weeks to prepare (if that). So Brook really didn’t put on significant amounts of muscle, he just ate healthy and hearty during camp and didn’t have to sweat off as many pounds as he usually does.

So, while I agree that going back down to 147 pounds after fighting at 160 will be a factor in his showdown with Spence, I don’t think we can compare this fight to the disastrous losses that Jones, De La Hoya and Byrd suffered after dropping down in weight. Those veterans were older and they had more wear and tear on their bodies from long and distinguished careers.

Can you think of anywhere dropping down was hugely successful? Two boxers immediately come to mind: Shawn Porter and Orlin Norris.

Porter, a super middleweight amateur standout, turned pro at 165 pounds in October 2008 and fought between 152-158½ pounds from late ’08 to mid-2010 before settling in at welterweight where he won a world title and remains a top contender.

Norris, a small heavyweight contender in the late 1980s/early ‘90s, dropped down to cruiserweight (which had 190-pound limit at the time) from late ’91 to mid-’95 and won and defended the WBA title during that time before going back to heavyweight.

I think age was a factor in their success. Porter, who is only 29, was in his early 20s when he dropped down in weight (and he didn’t face world-class welters right off the bat); Norris (the older brother of hall of famer Terry Norris) was 26 when he dropped down to cruiserweight.

 

RANDOM QUESTION

Hey Doug,

Here’s a random question. (Generalizing a little bit) It seems like a lot of Boxers share a common story: Poor upbringing, broken home, troubled youth, etc. Obviously, this comes with a lot of fighting and rebellious environment so boxing becomes almost the only way out and for some a do or die situation… Can you mention a few notable boxers with different stories? Have there been many World Champions with accomplished studies or even Master Degrees? Keep up the good work! – E

The Klitschko brothers didn’t grow up rich or privileged but they had a stable home environment and both pursued higher education as they made their way up the amateur and professional ranks. Both Vitali and Wladimir not only earned master’s degrees, but PhDs in Sports Science.

Many notable professional boxers have studied at college (and it should come as no surprise that most of them came from loving family backgrounds), some have earned college degrees.

Former WBA heavyweight titleholder James “Bonecrusher” Smith holds an associate’s degree and bachelor’s degree in business administration. It should be noted that he turned pro at the advanced age of 28 and had earned these degrees before embarking on his professional boxing career.

Other major world titleholders who earned college degrees (during their professional careers) include hall of famer and former WBC welterweight champ Carlos Palomino (recreation administration), future hall of famer and four-division titleholder Juan Manuel Marquez (accounting), former unified lightweight beltholder Juan Diaz (political science), two-division titleholder Darren Van Horn (broadcast journalism), and former WBO light heavyweight beltholder Nathan Cleverly (mathematics).

Some former contenders and noted prospects that earned college degrees include former four-time welterweight title challenger Mando Muniz, former junior welterweight title challenger John Duplessis, Olympic super heavyweight gold medalist Audley Harrison, and former heavyweight standout Chazz Witherspoon.

Please understand that these examples are just off the top of my head, and I realize that most of them are Americans. I know that I’m leaving several notable fighters out from numerous countries. You’ll have to do your own Google search to find out about them all.

You might want to look into some of the notable current titleholders and recent standouts from Japan, where it’s not out of the ordinary for professional boxers to pursue college degrees during their careers.

 

SIMILARITIES

Jones prime

Mayweather Jr. prime lower weights

High right hand defence

The shoulder roll

Sneaky lead right

Cheeky lead left hook

Why did I not see that! – Kev, Edinburgh

Hmmmm… the sneak lead right and the “cheeky” lead hook, yeah, you can say that the prime versions of Roy Jones Jr. (160-168 pounds) and Floyd Mayweather Jr. (13-135 pounds) had those punches in common. 

The “high right-hand defense,” and “shoulder roll”? No, I don’t think so. That was just Floyd. Jones often kept both hands down. Why? Because he could. Jones was a super athlete and boxer, so while he was a boxer at heart (and a former amateur champ and Olympic medalist like Mayweather), his style was more dynamic and intuitive than Floyd’s (or any other standout fighter of the ‘90s). Jones was more offense-minded and prone to showboating than Mayweather was.  

Mayweather was more technical and measured than Jones, even at junior lightweight and lightweight where he was strong enough to manhandle and knockout his opponents.  

I’ll say this about the ultra-talented prima-donnas, they boxed brilliantly but went for the kill when they hurt their opponents during their prime years. I became a major critic of both late in their careers, but I was a big fan when they were starting out, especially of Jones, who often overwhelmed his competition in breath-taking fashion. I still recall him tripping and quadrupling his left hook with lightning speed like no one had ever done before him. I hope he doesn’t get hurt tonight against Bobby Gunn.

 

 

Email Fischer at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at @dougiefischer

 

  • Ерлан Табылдиев

    Well, well, well… Finally, Jermall Charlo moves up to MW division. I might be wrong, but that GGG-Brook fight had a lot of influence and Jacobs fight + this Charlo’s move is one of them. Many fighters seem to start to believe that GGG has already past his prime and there is an unspoken competition among top MW and JMW fighters – who will be first to beat Golovkin. I still think that it was GGG Team’s plan to look vulnerable a little bit at Brook fight to attract potential victims cause it’s difficult to find an opponent to Golovkin. If it’s really so, then that is… just BRILLIANT!

    • DRE

      So if GGG just so much as lose just a single round its because he allowed it. Whatever you say. I thought Charlo moved North because he was already bursting at the seems and running out of options at 154. but I’ll just take your word and predict that GGG throws himself to the canvas in his upcoming fight before rising up to get back to work. And then everyone will want to fight him. All part of the master plan. And then we can get that fight to save boxing GGG-Canelo.

      • DBone

        How’s your cat? (I’m asking because you fuck it. Like all the time.)

        • Charlie U.

          I forgot. What’s the story here?

          • DRE

            He has these queer sexual fantasies regarding me and cats.

        • DRE

          You again? Fuck man you have a real creepy fetish over this cat thing. Keep your fucked up cat porn fantasies to your own pathetic self.

      • Ciscostudent561

        Tell em!!

      • Ерлан Табылдиев

        GGG lost 2nd round to Brook, because he didn’t care about defense as Brook couldn’t hurt him at all and GGG knew he will knocks Brook out eventually. But Your prediction is also wrong – GGG never allows himself to hit the canvas. He wasn’t knocked down in his whole boxing career. I expect him to be very careful in defense like against Lemieux. Golovkin is a smart guy – he knows to whom he can allow to get punched (Brook, Monro jr., Geale, Wade) and to whom he can’t allow (Lemieux, Stevens, Jacobs).

        • Barley mcgrew

          Well said.

        • DRE

          I was being sarcastic.

  • Teddy Reynoso

    The Charlotte twins are still in the growing stage physically at their young age (26) and being both slightly taller and bigger, Jermall might have really find it hard trying to stay at 154. I see him adjusting well at 160 and with his size, strength, punching power and warrior heart as well as mindset, he could be a match now against any middleweight not named Gennady Golovkin. But with a little more seasoning, he could be a threat to GGG in due time. He may just be what the division needs what with most of the big names avoiding the Kazakh power puncher-boxer or each other. The division is ripe for a shakeup I believe.

  • Ciscostudent561

    Hey can someone verify if what Dougie said about black boxing fans is true? I saw it on other forums but can’t believe it really.

    • IRISHBOXING NUT STEVIE

      ?????

      • Ciscostudent561

        Two other forums say he said something awfully careless and disrespectful about black boxing fans on social media. I just wanted to get the other side of the story.

        • IRISHBOXING NUT STEVIE

          i havent seen anything myself if you find anything post it .thanks

          • Ciscostudent561

            https://mobile.twitter.com/dougiefischer/status/735222730753089536
            I think this is it. Can’t believe it’s a year old. Idk wat got the fans to bring it back up maybe t was the n–er comments in the emails pulled up in the golden boy haymon lawsuit. Anyway. That comment, there is just no defending that. I’m suprised but I’m not surprised.

          • Randall Bannister

            there are three types of people in this world. Dicks, Pussies & Assholes (Arseholes for my British bredrins). Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through, but then you’ve got your Assholes Cisco and all the Assholes wanna do is shit all over everything! So Pussies might get mad at Dicks once in a while, because Pussies get fucked by Dicks. but Dicks also fuck Assholes Cisco and if your Dicks didn’t fuck assholes, you know what you get? you’d get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit.

            I see it like this (the twitter argument/debate) Doug was just being a dick. But that’s ok as Dicks fuck Assholes and the group (not demograph) he was refering to are ASSHOLES.

            Simple really.

          • mark elding

            What a delightful analogy.

          • Randall Bannister

            I wish I could claim it my own but I can’t it’s Team America

          • mark elding

            Missed the reference. Very funny film.

          • Barley mcgrew

            One hell of a lot of dicks, assholes and pussies you got there.

          • Henry Rush

            And you are all three.

          • Henry Rush

            And you are all three.

    • ceylon mooney

      i read a reference to something but the reference didnt say dick. didnt even name
      doug.

    • The Immortal S-Hop

      Recently Kenneth Bouhairie penned a piece about the PBC. It included some stuff that Dougie had tweeted and was skewed to look a certain way. In having read the piece I feel like it was pretty biased and misrepresented Dougie badly.
      Never mentioned was the fact that Doug didn’t create this term and was responding to a question about it from someone else.

      • Ciscostudent561

        Thanks that’s super helpful. As long as he isn’t speaking on Floyd Bhop or Ward, Dougies usually on point. My only disagreement with the statement is there are fans from every demographic that are biased and racists. So to single out African Americans is irresponsible and disrespectful. I’m relieved to know the Dougie didn’t initiate that. This is why you’re one of my faves Sarah.

        • The Immortal S-Hop

          Thank you sir. Dougie has said that he’s a fan of calling a jerk a jerk. Regardless of race. Seems to me that it’s others who are baiting him on this. I’m a fan of Dougie’s for sure, but I feel that it’s wrong to ask him about race and then get mad that he’s simply responding to questions which are asked of him. Be appreciative that he took the time to answer in the first place.

          • Koninbeor

            Some people just want to trap you. Anything to make you look bad.

          • philoe bedoe

            Well said………

  • ceylon mooney

    ken norton went to college (but i dont know what sorta home life he came
    from), ali didnt come from as rough a background as folks like frazier and moore…u could keep addin to the list

  • Barley mcgrew

    ‘He (Garcia) has been facing weaker competition’ – The only tougher competition Thurman has ever faced was Shawn Porter (less impressive than an ‘away’ Kell Brook as Thurman was when facing the challenger version of the Californian).

    However, in halting Khan, matthysse and Malignaggi – along with wins against Peterson, Herrera, Vargas and Guerrero – Garcia has defeated considerably superior overall competition to Thurman (Porter, Chaves, Diaz, Bundu, Guerrero, Collazzo). And he has looked a good way superior in doing it (Khan and Matthysse in particular).

    ‘Thurman has the advantages in every category’. I would suggest Garcia is by far the superior puncher (The Floridian, still oddly marketed as a world-class finisher, hasn’t genuinely stopped any fighter in over FOUR years (Collazzo and Diaz retirements). In particular, Garcia is a far better body puncher – of interest when one recalls how Thurman was badly hurt by Collazzo and hurt by Porter with body shots.

    Garcia also has the better chin IMO – and probably matches Thurman in the skill department too. Indeed, if anyone is likely to get busted up (‘Thurman will bust him up’) it’s just/more as likely to be the Floridian – a fighter left looking the worse for wear facially by both Collazzo and Porter (Thurman’s too easy to hit).

    ‘He (Garcia) looked pretty ordinary v Peterson and Guerrero’ And Thurman DIDN’T look ordinary when labouring to wins over Guerrero and Collazo ? – Vincent – Winston-Salem (mailbag).

    Don’t get me wrong. Keith Thurman is a nice little boxer-puncher – and a good addition to the higher echelons of the welterweight rankings. Yet does anyone really still view Thurman as the next big thing in the sport – as he was long touted. Even after all the mountain of recent (and not so recent) evidence to the contrary ? (astonishingly, I believe Boxrec rate Thurman at 8 in their pound-for-pound ratings).

    Overall, Thurman-garcia is a 50-50 contest for me. And one where I certainly wouldn’t be surprised to see Garcia busting up the Floridian before stopping him late. But I am fairly confident of one thing. And that’s the fact Thurman will never be the bona fide superstar so many evidently and puzzling still believe.
    .

    • mark elding

      I’m still waiting to be sold on Thurman.
      And whilst boxrec is the ultimate boxing reference tool, it is also the source of the most ridiculous pound for pound ratings posted on the web.

      • Barley mcgrew

        I rarely use Boxrec – if I do ever need to check on the details of a career I actually prefer wiki (I was over-sold Thurman so long I smelt a rat – true class will always out without the need for a tsunami of hype. And I figure I was right to do so). Kudos.
        .

        • mark elding

          I think a lot of fans are just wishing for Thurman to be amongst the next big things, against all available evidence, such is the scarcity of great US talent at the moment.
          At least the potential of Crawford and Spence generally appears to be held in higher regard, and deservedly so.

          • Ciscostudent561

            Idk American fighters are pretty lit right now.
            Gervonta, Charlo, Andrade, Hurd, Spence, Stevenson, Smith Jr,
            All have tremendous potential. I’d prolly rate Charlo the highest of all of them. So I wouldn’t say the US is hurting for talent. And in the small 1 percent chance that DJ beats GGG. That changed everything.

          • Barley mcgrew

            If they earn it – if they fight tough and look good doing so – then I will be among the first to other praise. Talk is cheap – actions count (agree on the above. Although what is certain is how most US talent now resides south of 160 – a major departure from times past). Kudos.
            .

          • Barley mcgrew

            Absolutely. Long said it. Indeed, the reason a certain other, previously no favourite of the US media, became such a ‘superstar’ – DESPITE possessing the sort of style US writers habitually loathe – was largely down to Lewis ending US heavyweight hegemony/a hitherto US-dominated sport going truly global (with a little help from a tall man with a pointy beard and real bad intentions).

            And they’ve been hitting that bargain bucket at Superstars R US ever since.

            * Ditto Crawford and Spence . Those guys are EARNING it. Kudos.

          • Giuseppe

            He is pretty good though. Now we get to see if he is THAT good.

        • Giuseppe

          i would LIKE it to be true though as he is at least an authentic human being, it seems.

        • Henry Rush

          Joshua and Brook come to mind even more.

        • RStech

          That’s the price fighter’s are paying for selling their souls to Haymon. He made them some money but at the cost of their credibility and legacy. Haymon’s ability to hype and build up opponents as legitimate threats has duped the masses into thinking undefeated records actually hold any weight these days.

          • Barley mcgrew

            So true. The very ‘poor man’s’ Don King. King duped his fighters yet usually delivered for the fans. However Haymon over-protects his fighters, and – as you say – dupes us. Kudos.
            .

      • disqus_EewaFe3EB6

        that’s because boxrec’s pound for pound ratings are made by an algorithm

        • mark elding

          I know, and which bright spark thought that would be a good idea?

          • disqus_EewaFe3EB6

            Are you asking me? Lack of an editorial board?
            Their all time pound for pound list has got a little surprise right on top, though

          • mark elding

            More of a rhetorical question lol. I’m curious as to whose at the top of their all time list though. Buck Smith?

          • disqus_EewaFe3EB6

            It’s floyd!

          • mark elding

            Fucks sake!

      • ceylon mooney

        u read
        teddy atlas
        list?

        • Ewan Leaper

          It was actually funny it was so bad, think he maybe has serious hyperpatriotism and cocaine issues…

          • ceylon mooney

            how can someone so deep into boxing get shit so wrong
            so frequently?

            well–HAHA–ur explaination works!

      • Giuseppe

        Thurman fought to a high level against ugly Shawn Porter. And I feel thurman would be 25% better than he is now if he had a promoter more concerned with his development… testing him against increasingly tough opponents instead of no relatively easy marks. Very close match up against the strangely underrated garcia.

    • Josh Boss

      The Thurman hype has levelled out now to where it should be. He’s a top welterweight who could potentially be the best welterweight, but I don’t think he will ever be a superstar as you said.

      I see it as 50-50. I find it really hard to right Garcia off as I’ve been burnt several times in the past doing so. Garcia has had an obvious gift decision and one or two more questionable decisions, but with the exception of the Peterson fight where he wasn’t his best, he’s always fought better when his opposition get better. His wins over Khan and Matthysse were really good.

      • I got paid 104000 bucks in last twelve months by doing an on-line job from home a­­n­­d I manage to do it by w­orking in my own time f­o­r several hrs /day. I’m using a money making opportunity I found online and I am excited that i was able to make so much extra income. It’s really beginner-friendly a­n­d I am just so grateful that I found out about this. Here’s what I did… http://statictab.com/r2tyhgi

        • Barley mcgrew

          WHO PAID YOU.

          • Koninbeor

            The Amish Mafia paid him to milk honey badgers.

          • Barley mcgrew

            Lol. ‘milk honey badgers’ ? Do they have the same attitude as the African ones ?

          • Koninbeor

            Those are the African ones. Not as bad as wolverines but I sure wouldn’t do it.

        • Josh Boss

          Nobody likes a show off, Brucey.

      • Barley mcgrew

        Perfect analogy. Two solid world-class 147 pounders who figure to serve up a closely-matched enthralling contest of moderate quality between them. Nothing more. Nothing less. Kudos.

    • Left Hook

      Neither fighter (Thurman or Garcia) is special. Garcia’s best win was over Matthyse, where the early headbutt caused the eye to swell, definitely changing the fight. Other than that, ‘wins’ over Herrera and Peterson are only indicators that he is competitive in that division. Thurman’s best win was nip-and-tuck with Porter, but again, nothing to make me, at least, rate either as ‘The Man’. In fact, I would say that the winner of that bout is only the placeholder until the winner of Spence/Brooks is crowned.
      BTW..neither Thurman or Brooks impressed vs Porter–Brooks hugging like a girl on her first date and Thurman failing to separate himself as truly being better.

      • Josh Boss

        It could be that its almost impossible to impress against Porter. The best you can hope for is to ‘deal’ with him.

        • Left Hook

          That’s true. He is one of the top dogs at that weight. I like the depth of the division, but not the ceiling..unless Spence is as good as advertised.

          • Josh Boss

            Not sold on Spence just yet, personally. It just feels like Keith Thurman but a few years later. Then they’ll be another guy to replace Spence. However unlike Thurman he has an early opportunity to make big waves against Brook. If he beats Brook, I’ll get onboard the hype train. I presume the ceiling goes up if Spence beats Brook? But if Brook beats Spence does it stay the same, and Spence was just a hype?

          • Left Hook

            I guess it depends on how the winner wins. A boring, competitive fight keeps the winner in the same boat as the others. A blitzing or beatdown would surely put the winner a notch above the Garcia-Thurman-Porter grouping, I believe. You know how it is…what have you done for me lately?

          • Charlie U.

            This is part of the reason why Brook was looking for options other than Spence. High risk/low reward because Spence brings talent and a ton of hype to the table but, at this point, not much else. Much credit to Kell for taking the fight because many others would have dropped the belt and moved north.

          • Josh Boss

            Yeah, full credit to Kell. I’ve long been defending him; that he wants the fights but can’t get them. He’ll fight anybody etc. He’s starting to prove me right now.

        • Barley mcgrew

          Nicely put. Kudos.

        • ceylon mooney

          disagree. brawler. linda reckless. tailor made
          for certain fighters.

      • Barley mcgrew

        Absolutely. And Brook isn’t THAT much more special either. All good, solid 147 pounders – Brook just a tad more so – and that’s it. Not a superstar or a potential superstar among them.

        Yet Spence ? He JUST might be (which, unproven as he is, is why I pick him against Brook). Kudos.
        .

        • Left Hook

          It will do the division some good if Spence IS that good. He has holes in his game, but don’t they all?

          • Barley mcgrew

            Sure agree there mate (if he doesn’t head north soon). Kudos

        • Giuseppe

          I’d say Crawford has the chops but like so many fighters nowadays getting consistent proof is hard to come by. One high level fight then three shit ones.

    • D. Gambino

      I’m with you on the Thurman/Garcia fight being almost a pick ’em fight.

      Garcia is as real a threat as it gets. Anyone who thinks Thurman is going to walk in and dominate Garcia is crazy. I still remember quite a few people on this site saying Matthysse would walk through Garcia when they fought.

      Garcia has a good chin and Thurman does NOT have one punch power so I don’t think Garcia will get stopped (obviously it could be an accumulation). Conversely, we HAVE seen Thurman hurt in the past and Garcia has enough power to hurt Thurman. Doug said all the things about Garcia that I like (good timing and counter-punching) about him so I won’t repeat it. I just hope we don’t see a Thurman who’s fighting of his back foot all night (though I suspect we are going to see it – sigh…)

      I do feel Thurman will get a close decision win which people may see differently in favor of Garcia. However, just like you, I would not be surprised at all if Garcia were to win. Truthfully, I kind of hope Garcia does win just to shake up the 147 division a bit.

      • Barley mcgrew

        I agree if it goes the distance then Thurman likely edges it – more mobile and the faster puncher the natural 147 pounder is. But it wouldn’t surprise me if Danny did slowly break the Floridian down and stop him late – Keith eats shots far too often (body punches a weakness).

        What we both agree on is any thought this is some routine walk in the park for Thurman is way off target – unless a Garcia not overly convincing since moving up just bombs on the night. I agree with Doug on this one – which is why I felt the poster in today’s mailbag was way too hot on the decent-but-far-from-exceptional, ONCE-lauded Thurman. Kudos mate.
        .

        • ceylon mooney

          i pick garcia. not anything i can measure, but he wins when hes not supposed
          to.

          • Barley mcgrew

            Good point.

      • Giuseppe

        I think thurman will stop garcia. I think he will stagger him and move in. Not that he is great at it… I just think it will come together for him.

    • 90s swagger

      Excellent post.
      I got it 55-45 Thurman. still a lot of questions of Thurman & I haven’t been that impressed with Dsg at 147lb.
      The Brook vs Spence winner is the man to beat at 147lb in my opinion.

      • Barley mcgrew

        Yeah, I think if it goes the distance Thurman edges it – or if it’s a stoppage Garcia (agree he’s looked less than stellar at 147) stops the Floridian late.

        And absolutely agree on the Brook-Spence winner being top dog at 147 – without a doubt. Kudos.
        .

    • Reggie Woodard

      Garcia might hurt Thurman in spots but he will not bust him up. He’s also not a far superior puncher. I think the power is comparable(Garcia more thudding, Thurman more snappy). Garcia was in retreat late against both Judah and Peterson(not to mention soundly outboxed by Mauricio Herrera).
      Thurman was hurt to the body and got in a dog fight with Porter.

      50-50 contest sounds about right as it’s hard to say or know how their styles will mesh come fight night. Will it be Thurman’s, pot-powershotting on the move or Garcia’s great timing and counter power shots? A battle of attrition as neither pug can gain a discernible strategic advantage?

      • Barley mcgrew

        Thurman has never demonstrated the ability to stop fighters at the highest level – Garcia has on more than one occasion (Khan – no great puncher – dropped a fresher Collazzo 3 times. Thurman couldn’t. Yet Garcia scored world-class stoppages against top-notch fighters like Khan and Matthysse)..

        Now if you’re saying the Floridian has more variety – then I might just agree. Yet there is no doubt Garcia boasts the heavier shot, and – when one takes into account Garcia’s excellent chin – then the New Jersey fighter is IMO the more likely to finish things before the final bell.

        I wouldn’t disagree Garcia can be outboxed – or that Thurman (who can indeed be facially busted up) is a reasonable boxer-puncher who figures to have the narrow edge if it goes the whole way. That’s why I JUST favour the scenario of Thurman edging it on points.

        But nothing I have seen from Thurman this past 4 years tells me Keith has carried his power to world-class (or even fringe-world class) – hence if Thurman does win it’s Garcia’s power HE has to evade whilst using his greater variety to edge it on points. Kudos.
        .

        • Reggie Woodard

          Great points…..

          Khan has been hurt a gazillion times though and Matthyse got dropped and almost stopped by a coming up in weight John Molina and also light punching Postol. Still excellent wins/stoppages by Garcia(who was the underdog in both fights).

          True about Thurman. I’m not sure if his power isnt as great as earlier advertised or some holes in his offensive game are taking away some precision. He lands direct bombs but usually from a distance(opponents can usually stiffen that shock absorber(neck) to lessen the impact).

          I have Thurman on points as well. Would like to be surprised by both fighters though, ie, a hardcore and spirited welterweight title fight.
          PEACE brutha

          • Barley mcgrew

            Really looking forward to this one. Kudos bro.

        • ceylon mooney

          good points there.

        • Floridastorm

          I don’t know what a lot of folks are drinking these days but how could anyone seriously think that Thurman is in any way better than Garcia. Garcia’s record alone overwhelms Thurman. Guerrero, Peterson, Matthysse, Judah, Morales (twice), Kahn, Holt, Campbell, Malignaggi, Beating all of them. Never once staggered or hurt in a fight. Never once tired by the 12th round. The Porter fight alone showed me that Thurman is not ready for Garcia. Garcia is one of the most skilled fighters out there with quick, sharp, punches, who is always in superb shape and I feel he’s going to chew up Thurman and KO him. Thurman may prove me wrong. But, I just don’t think so.

          • Barley mcgrew

            Absolutely. And interesting you note how Garcia stood strong against all those names – in light of a past-prime-never-good Collazzo badly hurting Thurman with a body punch (and Danny hits hard to the body).

            I really wouldn’t be that surprised if Garcia did wear Thurman down and stop him late – with you there (still think Thurman might just fiddle his way to a hard-fought points verdict – but I sure hope you’re right). Kudos mate.
            .

    • DRE

      Must be this dreaded America Media thing again.

      • Barley mcgrew

        That’s what I said.

        • DRE

          Don’t you always.

    • Henry Rush

      You’re boring.

      • Charlie U.

        Haha. I don’t think he’s a fan of yours either. Seems like you’re blocked like myself and everyone else who has ever disagreed with him.

    • Standing8

      He didn’t stop Matthysse. He stayed on his feet and got a decision via excessive holding and low blows.

      • Barley mcgrew

        My bad. Garcia did indeed win on points – after flooring Matthysse in the 11th round. However Garcia won desisively on all three scorecards and in the opinion of most/all writers – DESPITE having a point deducted for said holding in the final round. Kudos.
        .

        • Giuseppe

          I rewatched that fight recently and it was a lot closer than I remember. That eye lost matthyse the fight really… he couldn’t press when he had the advantage. Still a top win for garcia as he damaged the eye after all.

    • Giuseppe

      Thurman has a decent chin. He has one of those quick to clear heads and quick to steady legs. But garcia is thick headed. I wonder if it’s because he has risen to the weight, looks robust.

  • Don Badowski

    Tureano Johnson as an opponent for Charlo? Fine, but after that long layoff I don’t think Johnson is ready. I’d much rather see Charlo take on the Stevens / Lemieux winner.

    • Charlie U.

      If Charlo immediately takes on the Stevens-Lemieux winner, he will gain back (for me) some of the respect he lost at the end of the Williams fight. I know the two things aren’t really the same but what he did with Williams left such a bad taste in my mouth that I can’t separate the action from the fighter.

      • D. Gambino

        I don’t know Charlie. Sometimes fighter shit talking before fight gets a bit too carried away (as it did with Williams and many other fighters before him). Why not fault Williams for all of his shit talking in the lead up to the fight? There was a LOT of shit talking by Williams which is why Charlo acted the way he did. But you’re right that it’s still up to Charlo to be the “bigger man” after that spectacular KO.

        Wish fighters would be more professional in general. Look at Golovkin and Jacobs pre-fight talk. Both guys have been respectful but also asserted that they will win in dominant fashion. You can do both without being an asshole to the other fight.

        • Charlie U.

          I hear ya, but I don’t really remember the pre fight talk to be that bad. I don’t take much of that stuff seriously anyway because the guys are usually just trying to hype the fight. Almost every time after the fight, however, boxers embrace and acknowledge each other regardless of the outcome. Charlo showed zero class and sportsmanship, even after a devastating KO.

          I agree about the GGG/Jacobs stuff. Nothing but respect for each other, but still showing confidence in themselves. If you asked some people here, though, they would tell you Jacobs should be keeping his mouth shut. I can guarantee, however, that regardless of the outcome those two will embrace after the fight.

          • Ерлан Табылдиев

            Agree with You, Charlie. There is no hate between GGG and DJ. They respect each other. And it seems to me, DJ remembers what happened to Stevens after his trash-talking before the fight with GGG. )) Then GGG – “Hey man, ARE YOU SERIOUS? ARE YOU SERIOUS???” LOL.

          • Floridastorm

            GGG doesn’t have an angry bone in his body. It’s the way he was brought up and why the Russian and eastern European fighters are always respectful. They all had tough childhoods, some with real poverty, but don’t take it out on other people as do some of the American ethnics. DJ was apparently brought up correctly as he seems to be a pretty quiet and peaceful guy.

          • Ерлан Табылдиев

            Well said. Kudos, mate.

          • DRE

            The funny thing with Jacobs is that he was ripped for being a supposed coward before he even had a chance to sign the dotted line. And now that he’s getting ready for the biggest fight of his career he still has keyboard warriors like that Robert guy insulting his manhood. And we don’t even know if Jacobs is really saying all that stuff anyways.

  • Already956

    MM Salvador Sanchez Special

    Sanchez vs Arguello @ 126/130

    Sanchez vs Loma @ 126

    Sanchez vs Morales @ 126

    Sanchez vs Marquez @ 126

    Sanchez vs Saddler @ 126

    Sanchez vs Pep @ 126

    • mark elding

      Most of those make my brain hurt.
      I would add Sanchez v Chavez @ 130lb. Which also makes my brain hurt.

      • Left Hook

        What a war that would be!

    • Jorge

      Sanchez wins all.

    • D. Gambino

      I’ll piss some people off today. I like Sanchez to win all of them except for Lomachenko. I feel Lomachenko beats Sanchez by close (possibly split) decision.

      Too much speed, movement, and angles for Sanchez. Sanchez is as tough as they come at 126 but Lomachenko’s athletic and mental skills put him right up there with the best.

      Again this is not talking shit about the legend that is Sanchez – I just think Lomachenko would be 50/50 against any of the “126 legends.” Think about it before you automatically write off my comment.

      • Already956

        Theres a reason I put hytech in there. Personally I got Sanchez by TKO over Loma. Might change my mind once Lomas career is set and done.

      • Barley mcgrew

        Sure not of a mind to write that off. Kudos.

    • maxx

      Loma!

    • DRE

      Sanchez sweeps it. Slick as Pep. Hard-hitting like Sandler and Arguello. Smart like Marquez. Talented like Loma. Tough and like Morales.

  • Michel Desgrottes

    Yea Marquez has an accounting degree, sharp dude

    • maxx

      Barrera has a law degree if I am not mistaken.

      • Henry Rush

        Barrera was the first person that came to mind when I read the mailbag.

      • Barley mcgrew

        One of the many things I liked about Barrera – middle-class, educated and from Mexico City as he was. And then he converted to more boxer-puncher too. Never that archetypal ‘Mexican warrior’ fighting his way out of grinding pverty – and it made Marco special for me. Kudos Maxx.
        .

        • maxx

          Barerra is a class act yet as ruthless as they come once inside the ring, no question about it.Kudos pal

  • Mark Schoeman

    It’s fascinating how so many people are already mining excuses for Brook, looking for any reason to be allowed to discount what will happen if Spence beats him handily.

    It’s sort of like back in school when that insecure friend always walked out on finals day, telling everybody how he hadn’t slept the night before, that he was going to study but he had to work, etc, etc…anything to establish an excuse in case his grades were low. It was always transparent because we knew whatever the result that was the result…but it was amusing how he couldn’t just accept it and was making excuses before he even needed to, which told everybody he didn’t have the goods.

    • Orca

      You still seem angry about it. What’s the guys name and did he get a good pass?

    • Charlie U.

      Who’s mining for an excuse for Brook? I think people have been pretty fair in their assessment of the fight. At this stage, we know what we have in him. Not a superstar, but a very good fighter and most likely the best WW in the world. The ceiling on Spence is not yet known. From what I’ve read, folks here are lauding KB for taking the fight, but no one’s setting up excuses for him if he loses. He will have lost to a better fighter.

      • philoe bedoe

        Well said.
        It’s Spence who has more to prove than Brook.
        But if Spence can come to Britain and rip that belt from Brook then full respect to him………

      • Henry Rush

        Charlie, for months I’ve read excuses for Brook on here. It’s the leg, the eye socket, having to cut weight, etc, etc. The best is from Brook himself. He can make weight to fight Khan, but it’s such an awful, hellish, next to impossible struggle to make weight for Spence.

        And as Brook was bestowed with having balls the size of Jupiter for taking on GGG, it was never about balls, it was about $$$. That’s why that towel was ready. Get biggest payday for fighting a fight everyone knew he would lose (apart from all 126 delusional Brook fans) and at the first sign of real trouble, throw in the towel. The only reason he is fighting Spence is because he got boxed in. Now when he loses this fight, it’ll be “I just couldn’t make the weight.”

        I’m saying it here and now: if Brook actually goes through with the Spence fight, which he will lose, he will use the weight drain excuse, and afterwards if Khan says, okay let’s fight now, but at 147, Brook will be able to make the weight..AGAIN. And I do hope to see that fight. Khan will pick Brook’s head off.

        • Ciscostudent561

          I agree with this 100% except I don’t think Khan beats Brook

        • Charlie U.

          The money might have been a big factor but the guy still went up two weight classes to face someone that many have run from. He took some punishment in that fight as well and we won’t really know the extent of it until he fights again. His corner might have been quick on the towel but how much damage did you want the guy to continue to absorb from GGG? I don’t think anyone has even gone a full twelve rounds with him, so the fact that KB stood and traded with him deserves recognition. In this post Mayweather era of fighters seeking the easiest routes to the biggest paydays, and dumping belts to avoid real challenges, the fact that Brook has signed to faced Spence (high risk, lower reward) should be commended. I wouldn’t have faulted him for moving up to 154, he just fought comfortably at 160. Of course, he would have rather fought Khan first. Much more money and much less risk. Anybody would have done the same thing. The fight didn’t work out though and I think Kell should be given credit for now fighting Spence.

    • Henry Rush

      Glad someone else sees through Brook.

  • The Black Mamba

    Is Broner looking like Lamont Peterson or is it Peterson looking like Adrien Broner?

  • mark elding

    Topically inspired Roy Jones mythical matchups;

    Jones v Carlos Monzon @ 160lb
    Jones v Michael Nunn @ 160lb
    Jones v Carl Froch @168lb
    Jones v Dwight Qawi @ 175lb
    Jones v Jose Torres @ 175lb
    Jones v Toney @ 195lb (the match I think Roy should have pursued post Ruiz for his fifth divisional title, rather than boil back down to 175)
    Jones v Buster Douglas @ heavy circa ’97 (the match was mooted around that time)

    • Left Hook

      ALWAYS RJJ. Always.

      • Barley mcgrew

        Lol. So of a mind to agee (all wrong for Toney at any weight). Yet I think Monzon would have KO’d the young Jones late at 160, a FIT Buster Douglas would have been way too large and way too much – and Jones-Qawi I find impossible to pick. Maybe Jones, JUST Lol. Kudos.

        • Left Hook

          Don’t know if you ever check out Dan Rafael’s chat on ESPN, but that is the canned answer for any mythical matchup involving RJJ. Mine too! Being of sound mind, I don’t think he could have handled a fit Buster Douglas–although RJJ handled tall fighters, I think the 230 lb jab would have rattled his cage more than the Julio Gonzalez’ and Eddie Harding’s did. Maybe Buster chases shadows all night, or maybe he lands the only punch of the night that truly matters. Qawi..wow. Talk about in-your-grill… Bryant Brannon with a better punch, better chin, and better skills. Pass..

          • Barley mcgrew

            Never have(listened to Raphael’s ESPN chat). Totally agree on the 6 5′ Douglas’s jab being way to much for a Jones who would be giving away 5 inches in height and nearly 40 pounds in reach to such hard-punching able heavyweight technician. A whole different world from Ruiz. (Qawi was like a mini-‘Smoking Joe’ – what a contest Roy the 5 7 former Dwight Braxton would have been at 175. So agree mate). Kudos.
            .

          • maxx

            To be honest with you I do not recall Gonzalez landing many jabs against Roy, though I do recall Harding troubling Roy with his style and smarts also Virgil Hill was able to consistently land the jab on Roy but didn’t he pay for it LOL.Kudos

          • Barley mcgrew

            Now THAT was a great body punch – and against a larger fighter at that (not like ‘chopped liver and B-Hop sauce’ when little Oscar got sploshed in twice the time. Lol). Kudos.

          • maxx

            It broke Virgil’s ribs, heck of a shot from a heck of a fighter.Kudos pal.

          • Barley mcgrew

            Best bodyshot I ever saw, Maxx (although Mickey Ward came close on more than one occassion). Kudos mate.

          • maxx

            Shea Neary OOOhhp lol.Kudos

          • Barley mcgrew

            Lol. OOOhhp indeed! (finished poor Shea really). Kudos.

          • maxx

            Shea Neary OOOhhp lol.Kudos

          • Jody Hanna

            He said a Jones – Douglas fight in 1997, Douglas wouldn’t have been the one that kayoed Tyson.

          • Left Hook

            That would have been an RJJ feast..IMHO. Thanks for making me read!

    • RStech

      Prime Jones beats them all, but likely has the most trouble with Qawi. Dwight was a compact beast who walked through punches and took a good shot, hence his “buzzsaw” nickname. Went the distance with Spinks and Holyfield and KO’s Saad Muhammed twice. Ultimately Jones speed would prove to be a bit much, but knowing what we know about Jones’ chin, Qawi was the one guy on the list who could check it.

      I was never truly impressed with Monzon. His biggest wins were against smaller opponents who were well past their prime. Jose Torres was overrated as well, but good enough that he could dominate today’s LHW division.

      • maxx

        Indeed I concur in regards to Monzon, though that jab would have troubled anyone, I suspect Roy would have beat him with superfast counter right hands over the jab of Monzon.Kudos

      • DRE

        As in the Monzon who established the greatest Middleweight reign in boxing history. And if he’s to be ripped for fighting smaller guys past their primes then give him credit for handily beating tough middleweights that were in their primes. Nino Benvenuti, Bennie Briscoe. Raldrigo Valdez. Now those were real middleweights. And for the record I have Monzon on top of my ATG middleweight list.

        • RStech

          No disrespect to Monzon, I just don’t think he beat the biggest names of his era at their best. No fault of his own, be fought whoever was there at the time. Benvenuti was limited and padded his record in Italy against lesser opposition. Briscoe was a dangerous opponent for anyone but more or less a gatekeeper, he already had 10 losses and gave up four inches in height. Emile Griffith was past it, and Valdes lost six other fights before and after Monzon and to lesser opposition.

          • Barley mcgrew

            Many fighters back then lost earlier in their careers – such was the quality that existed in times gone by. (Hagler for one). Yet Valdez and Briscoe were in the prime of their lives when facing Monzon – and both men with dedication would likely have reigned long as middleweight champions anytime over the past 25 years (I just cannot agree on Benvenuti mate). Kudos.
            .

        • Barley mcgrew

          Total agreement, mate. Ray Robinson may have been the superior pound-for-pound fighter – yet Monzon was the greatest middleweight of them all. Kudos.
          .

      • Barley mcgrew

        The great Rodrigo Valdez was in the prime of his career when twice losing to a Monzon four years older – despite the fact he had been around for as long as Monzon himself. And Bennie Briscoe too was both younger and still in the prime of his career when drawing then losing to Monzon in 67 and 72 respectively. (Monzon was rather fortunate in Buenos Aries)

        The great Benvenuti WAS slightly older – and he had indeed once been a light-middleweight. However the Italian near-great came with 9 middleweight defences and was far more proven and considerably more versatile than the endless array of undersized fare on the resume of another later near-ATG who shall remain nameless.

        Even genuinely smaller champions on Monzon’s resume like Griffith and Napoles were far better equipped to test a great middleweight than the walk-forward Trinidad ever was – not that Carlos NEEDED such names to define HIS greatness. Sorry, mate. But I simply cannot agree there.

        I, like you, was a massive Jones fan – and any Jones-Qawi battle at 175 really would have been a fight for the ages. Total agreement. However, super-fast and athletic as the prime Jones was – I simply cannot see Roy coping with the long, powerful jab, thunderous right hand and undoubted technique of a fit-to-compete giant heavyweight like Douglas.

        Much as I would like to say otherwise. Kudos RStech.
        .

        • RStech

          Valdez claim to fame was his wins over Briscoe. Who else was he beating aside from journeymen? His name was launched into popularity by fighting Monzon. Briscoe’s greatest victory was his win over George Benton, otherwise he lost every time he stepped up. Griffith was better as a Welter and well past his prime. Nino built his career in the same fashion as Monzon…defeating a lot of his fellow countrymen who weren’t much more than a blip on the radar of the boxing landscape. While there’s no argument that Monzon’s record featured a more dangerous line-up than Hopkins’, there was really no stand-out opponent for Monzon. That said, his boxing style, size, skill and ability would serve him well against middleweight greats of any era.

          • Barley mcgrew

            If Briscoe alone, defeated three times by Valdez, was the savage-punching Colombian’s only great name then that name alone would validate Valdez’s superb, world-class pedigree.

            For said Briscoe sat at the apex of one of the most talented bunch of middleweight contenders in history (a Philly murder’s row). His entire career was spent fighting amongst fighters from his own Philly neck of the woods who would have been champions in many lesser eras. He spent his entire career thriving when he ‘stepped up’ – only great middleweights like Monzon and Valdez proving a bridge too far.

            With respect, many of the contenders/fighter’s you are writing off as mere ‘journeymen’ back then were anything but – as with many names now forgotten from the 30’s and 40’s).

            Make no mistake, Briscoe was everything or more that champions like Fullmer, Credan and Zale were. However, Valdez also stopped the tough, estimable Tonna in Paris – and scored a great stoppage over tough mainstay contender Bobby Cassidy too.

            As for Griffith, that great welterweight turned middleweight champion may have been past his prime (most great fighters also fought great champions past their prime) – but Griffith’s style lent itself beautifully to ensure the Virgin Islander matured into the sort of fighter that Duran and Hopkins became when displaying guile in their later years. VERY hard to beat.

            And Benvenuti came every bit as fully proven as any number of great US champions who build THEIR resumes early on against the archetypal ‘mid-western clubfighter’ types so common place on the early resumes of most great US champions.

            Sorry, but the likes of Valdez and Bennie Briscoe were every bit the standout opponents on Monzon’s resume that Graziano was on the resume of Zale and the vastly smaller Conn and the past-his-prime Schmeling was on the record of Joe Louis.

            As for the great Sugar Ray, the likes of Randolph Turpin (never excelled), Fullmer and the far smaller, well-worn Basilio were sure no legends on Robinson’s rather patchy middleweight ledger (Ray defined himself even less with regards prime great names at 147).

            We’re going to have to disagree on Monzon, RStech.

            For we are WAY apart. Kudos.
            .

          • Barley mcgrew

            If Briscoe alone, defeated three times by Valdez, was the savage-punching Colombian’s only great name then that name alone would validate Valdez’s superb, world-class pedigree.

            For said Briscoe sat at the apex of one of the most talented bunch of middleweight contenders in history (a Philly murder’s row). His entire career was spent fighting amongst fighters from his own Philly neck of the woods who would have been champions in many lesser eras. He spent his entire career thriving when he ‘stepped up’ – only great middleweights like Monzon and Valdez proving a bridge too far.

            With respect, many of the contenders/fighter’s you are writing off as mere ‘journeymen’ back then were anything but – as with many names now forgotten from the 30’s and 40’s).

            Make no mistake, Briscoe was everything or more that champions like Fullmer, Credan and Zale were. However, Valdez also stopped the tough, estimable Tonna in Paris – and scored a great stoppage over tough mainstay contender Bobby Cassidy too.

            As for Griffith, that great welterweight turned middleweight champion may have been past his prime (most great fighters also fought great champions past their prime) – but Griffith’s style lent itself beautifully to ensure the Virgin Islander matured into the sort of fighter that Duran and Hopkins became when displaying guile in their later years. VERY hard to beat.

            And Benvenuti came every bit as fully proven as any number of great US champions who build THEIR resumes early on against the archetypal ‘mid-western clubfighter’ types so common place on the early resumes of most great US champions.

            Sorry, but the likes of Valdez and Bennie Briscoe were every bit the standout opponents on Monzon’s resume that Graziano was on the resume of Zale and the vastly smaller Conn and the past-his-prime Schmeling was on the record of Joe Louis.

            As for the great Sugar Ray, the likes of Randolph Turpin (never excelled), Fullmer and the far smaller, well-worn Basilio were sure no legends on Robinson’s rather patchy middleweight ledger (Ray defined himself even less with regards prime great names at 147).

            We’re going to have to disagree on Monzon, RStech.

            For we are WAY apart. Kudos.
            .

          • philoe bedoe

            The very reason most people talk about an Argentinian boxer as one of the best middleweights and boxers of all time says it all.
            No massive worldwide fanboys, just respect for a boxer with natural toughness, power and excellent timing on his jab and right hand………

          • Barley mcgrew

            Absolutely. Monzon just about had it all. Kudos.

          • Barley mcgrew

            Correction: Briscoe also defeated future light-heavyweight champions Vincente Rondon and Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and savage punching Eugene ‘Cyclone’ Hart – when past Bennie’s prime (Briscoe stopped a Rondon who later went the distance with nuclear-powered heavyweight Ernie Shavers!).

            Totally forgot about the Rondon and Mustafa wins. BUt, along with wins over Benton and Hart and a draw with Monzon – Bennie Briscoe stacks up as one of the most accomplished middleweights never to win the title. To be sure.

            * I had to add that in a separate post – to re-edit would see it ‘Deleted as spam” Kudos.
            .

    • RStech

      Prime Jones beats them all, but likely has the most trouble with Qawi. Dwight was a compact beast who walked through punches and took a good shot, hence his “buzzsaw” nickname. Went the distance with Spinks and Holyfield and KO’s Saad Muhammed twice. Ultimately Jones speed would prove to be a bit much, but knowing what we know about Jones’ chin, Qawi was the one guy on the list who could check it.

      I was never truly impressed with Monzon. His biggest wins were against smaller opponents who were well past their prime. Jose Torres was overrated as well, but good enough that he could dominate today’s LHW division.

    • maxx

      The Qawi fight is interesting and one can make solid arguments for both men, I pick Nunn based on his “styles make fights” and certainly the version of Douglas that beat Tyson would seriously hurt Jones.Kudos Mark

      • Jody Hanna

        The version of Douglas that beat Tyson was never seen again, especially in 1997 when Mark mentioned the match being.

        • maxx

          Wasn’t he 400lb at that point in time lol.Kudos

          • Max-Barley…

            No Barley, That was in Buster’s post Tyson pre diabetes depression days.
            In 97 he actually got under 240lbs
            But he was SHOT!
            always a pleasure.

          • Charlie U.

            What is this new screen name??

          • Max-Barley…

            No Barley, That was in Buster’s post Tyson pre diabetes depression days.
            In 97 he actually got under 240lbs
            But he was SHOT!
            always a pleasure.

    • Jody Hanna

      Monzon barely outhustles Roy to a controversial decision, Jones adjusts, dazzles and walks the rematch.
      Michael Nunn proves to be all wrong for Jones, the quicksilver southpaw wins on points.
      Jones by wide decision.
      Jones stopps the Camden Buzzsaw late on after a scary start.
      Jones stops Torres early on one of those nights he wanted to prove a point.
      Jones would have beaten Toney every day up until he became a punchbag.
      Jones stops the embarrassingly out of shape Douglas, who has pizza delivered to his corner between the fourth and fifth rounds.

    • Max-Barley…

      Monzon trailing on the cards knocks Jones cold in the 10th round with a stunning right hand.
      Nunn wins a split decision snoozefest.
      Jones toys with Froch and wins a landslide decision.
      jones outboxes Qawi, in a real tough contest.
      Jones beats Toney seven days a week.
      Roy easily outboxes the washed up 1997 saggy-tits Douglas.

  • Jorge

    Read the article and re watched the DLH v Quartey fight. None of the current welterweights be it Brook, Garcia, or Thurman are that impressive when watching those guys, not only did those guys face the best they were just a lot more talented and had better skill.

    • Ciscostudent561

      Yea it’s funny. I was thinking if Cotto was in this generations wave of fighters ppl would be considering him an ATG. Prime Cotto would clown everyone in ww ranks right now. Except maybe Spence cus we don’t know.
      But he wasn’t even the 3rd best in his generation and it wasn’t close.

      • Jorge

        I agree. I would add that a prime Cotto v a prime Trinidad would have been a great fight for about 6 rds before Trinidad tears his head off.

        • Julio

          Yeah I agree. That fight would have been pretty much a rerun of the first Margo fight. Just that in this case, Tito would stopped Cotto earlier like you said.

      • Barley mcgrew

        And to think how relatively recently it was that Cotto was in his prime. No need to travel back 20-70 years to find a far stronger welterweight division – unlike heavyweight (the late 90’s) and middleweight (the late-80’s). How fast times change. Kudos.
        .

      • ceylon mooney

        not pacquiao. uh uh.

        • Ciscostudent561

          Huh? PAC is number 2 … Cotto is a far behind #3?

    • mark elding

      That is true. Different league completely. Although the mid to late ’90’s might have been the second best Golden Age of 147lb fighters (after the late ’70’s to early ’80’s), with DelaHoya, Quartey, Trinidad and an ageing but still great Whitaker featuring. Almost seems an unfair comparison.
      Even the contenders who repeatedly failed at the very top back then, Jose Luis Lopez and Oba Carr, would likely have their way with the current crop. Lopez’ chin was ridiculous, as was his punching power, if he could be bothered to let his hands go.

      • Jorge

        Agree guys like Lopez and Carr would have been in the mix for the top spots right now.

        • maxx

          Carr was a bit overrated in my opinion, he had excellent handspeed and combinations, indeed he was able to match a prime Oscar in the handspeed department yet he was too easy to hit and was not blessed with the greatest chin, I thought he received an absolute gift against the ageing Livingstone Bramble.Kudos

          • Barley mcgrew

            So agree, Maxx. The ‘can’t miss’ next great Kronk star who failed to live up to that billing. Kudos.

          • maxx

            Absolutely, some folks assume a quick-fisted African-American fighter will simultaneously be blessed with cat like reflexes, not true at all, Carr had average reflexes and used to always bring his lead hand down after throwing his jab, a bad tactic as Joe Louis was to find out against Max Schmelling and in recent years Shane Mosley against Vernon Forrest.Kudos pal

          • Barley mcgrew

            Good points. (something the past-his-prime Schmeling exploited to great effect against young Joe when catching him with that right hand over and over again) * AJ beware a similar schooling v the canny Klitschko). Kudos.
            .

          • maxx

            Let us hope the young man is super focused against a old fox like Wladimir………BTW Barley I just watched a documentary “BBC This World” on Russian football hooliganism, these guys are absolute monsters, total nutcases, I remember during the brutal incidents in Marseille during the European championships, a mate of mine a professional kickboxer informed that these guys were all highly trained in Sambo and our boys never stood a chance, this documentary reveals everything, truly frightening stuff, I for one will not be attending “Russia 2018” lol. If you have not seen the documentary which was aired yesterday 9pm on BBC2, it should be available on BBC iplayer.Kudos pal and well worth watching.

          • Barley mcgrew

            Saw it, Maxx. What about that mean, brooding hombre who was built like a brick shithouse who led those hooligans (we all knew what they do they do with Putin’s blessing).

            All cold-eyed, tough-as-nails and MMA-trained – and just tearing through the streets (often wearing MMA 4oz mitts) knocking out anyone in their path. Truly scary stuff indeed.

            Amazed that Russia still has the world Cup in 2018 – what with these crazy thugs and all the doping in sport allegations. But then again – this is FIFA we are talking about. Lol.

            I had friends once involved in fan violence in this country – although I never was myself. Told them it was counterproductive – especially when trashing foreign towns and cities. They never listened. Lol. (Gary T take a bow)

            However these Russian thugs are both ferocious and politically backed – and that makes them so much scarier again (will Putin/his cronies encourage them to start killing foreign fans overseas – only to smirk when denying any connection ? Whole new ball game indeed.

            Yet another ‘great’ invention we gave the world that someone else now does ‘better’. Lol. Kudos friend.
            .

          • Ewan Leaper

            Count our blessings, up in Scotland they’re usually short fat bald blokes who’s only genuine battles will be with heart disease and Type 2 Diabetes…

          • maxx

            That was scary stuff indeed, that fight in the forest, all I can say is Englishmen be aware, you are not ready YET to take these thugs on, they truly are hardcore, whilst most folks are at work, these guys are powerlifting and MMA training, it seems a way of life for them, and indeed right wing forces in Russia are backing them in order to project a strong man view of the Russian male, frightening stuff indeed, England fans stay away.Kudos pal

          • DRE

            So it looks like the Brits no longer have the monopoly over soccer hooligism.

          • maxx

            Not anymore lol, the Russkis truly are in a league of their own.Kudos

          • DRE

            Those fucking Russians!

      • Orca

        Great post. What a great era.

      • Barley mcgrew

        Bring back Crisanto Espana I say (Lol). The ‘Northern Irishman’ by way of Venezuela was a terrific welterweight. Just the lone career loss in a war with Quartey – then Meldrick Taylor’s conqueror retired. I’d take Espana to defeat any of the mediocrity in today’s welterweight division. Halcyon days. (I believe he still resides – married with grown up children – in Ulster). Kudos.
        .

        • 90s swagger

          That guy had crazy Long arms.

          • Barley mcgrew

            He did, didn’t he ” 6ft 1, great right hand – and limbs that went on forever. Such a pity he called it a day after losing just the one classic contest to the great Quartey. Kudos mate

          • maxx

            Qaurtey might just have been the best welterweight of the 90s, that’s how good he was.Kudos pal.

          • DRE

            He almost beat a prime Oscar when no one else come close to doing so. That says a lot right there.

          • maxx

            Absolutely and a lot of folks believe he won, I must say it really was a bout that could have easily gone either way hence the split decision.Kudos

          • mark elding

            I scored for Quartey by 1 point, despite Oscar’s grandstand finish (after which he was just as depleted as Ike).
            That fight needed another 3 rounds.

          • maxx

            I scored it for Oscar, but it very easily could have gone to Qaurtey as indeed was the official verdict of Larry O’Connell.Kudos

          • Carlos

            i did too. bazooka won that fight.

          • mark elding

            Demolished Espana and Phillips, outpointed Carr, jabbed Lopez’ head off despite getting dropped twice by the only welter that was physically stronger, beat Oscar on the Golden Boy’s best night(in my opinion).
            Quartey had quite a resume at 147lb. Pity that Whitaker fight never materialised. I remember it being almost a done deal at one point.

          • Barley mcgrew

            Albeit demolished Espana in the 11th after one heck of a contest – and one where Quartey was hurt himself. Kudos.

          • maxx

            Absolutely, the man was a beast, I have no doubt in my mind he would have ran someone like Mayweather out of the ring, if Mayweather indeed would have got into the ring in the first place LOL.Kudos Mark

          • ceylon mooney

            interesting. best fight to watch?

          • maxx

            Oscar De La Hoya, Oba Carr, Jose Luis Lopez, anyone of these fights.Kudos pal

          • maxx

            Oscar De La Hoya, Oba Carr, Jose Luis Lopez, anyone of these fights.Kudos pal

          • Barley mcgrew

            So agree. Mayweather and Pacquiao both thrived up at welteweight precisely because welterweights the calibre of Ike Quartey no longer hunted there. To be sure. Kudos mate.
            .

          • maxx

            Says it all about the division in 00s that pumped up featherweights were owning it lol.Kudos pal

          • Barley mcgrew

            So true. Imagine little Manny or the power-light Mayweather fighting Robinson, Leonard, Hearns – or even Benetiz ? Kudos mate.

          • I got paid 104 thousand bucks in last 12 months by doing an on-line job at home a­­n­­d I did it by w­o­r­k­i­n­g in my own time f­o­r few hrs /daily. I used a money making opportunity I found on-line and I am so excited that I was able to earn such great money. It’s very beginner friendly a­­n­­d I am just so thankful that i discovered it. This is what i did… http://statictab.com/6x2fxzv

          • Barley mcgrew

            Good for you.

          • Ewan Leaper

            Lol!

          • Ewan Leaper

            Lol!

          • maxx

            HAHAHAAA, that’s the spirit.Kudos pal

          • Giuseppe

            I got paid 104 thousand bucks to take your dad out to dinner and change his life forever.

          • Ewan Leaper

            Had Benitez been as committed to boxing as he was to the high life then he’d have been remembered as one of the best fighters who ever lived, some talent.

          • Ewan Leaper

            Had Benitez been as committed to boxing as he was to the high life then he’d have been remembered as one of the best fighters who ever lived, some talent.

          • maxx

            I would put my mortgage on Robinson, Leonard and Hearns beating Mayweather and Pacquiao .Kudos pal

          • Giuseppe

            I wouldn’t put my house on hearns’ chin against pac. Still think he’d probably win. Very probably. But that left hand could easily stagger him for 2007 or 2008 pac to smell blood. Leonard against the mayweather who fought canelo… a great fight. Would love to watch that.

          • maxx

            I think Manny would need a ladder to fight Tommy.Kudos

          • Giuseppe

            He can bring the one he used against margarito just go up a rung.

          • maxx

            Hearns was much longer than Margacheato and that is just for starters.Kudos

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Dude…. there’s no way Pac beats Hearns…. NO WAY

          • Giuseppe

            I know…. I know

          • Giuseppe

            Weird weight manipulation the story of the 2000s onward. Wonder why and how…

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Makes me wonder.

          • DRE

            Just like trying to imagine Floyd and Manny moving up to challenge the likes of Jake LaMotta and Marvin Hagler.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Remember these guys came from way lower weight classes too… Only Duran had the guts to do the impossible and go all the way from Lightweight to Middle. Manny at Welter was already a big feat considering he came from Flyweight.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            Even though I’ve always been impressed by Manny, I don’t see him competing with a Prime Robinson, Leonard, Trinidad, Hearns or even a Curry, Starling, Brown or Oscar….

          • Giuseppe

            And the £££ or $$$$

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            i’m not so sure about that. He was a stationary target with an awesome jab. I didn’t see him winning the Oscar fight, it was close until he almost got stopped in the last round.

          • maxx

            He had that peekaboo defence which was not easy to penetrate, so despite being somewhat stationary he was not so east to hit and was quite an effective stalker behind that piston like jab of his. Whether one thinks Oscar beat him or not, Oscar was also one of the very best welterweights of the 90s, after going 48 rounds with Whitaker, Quartey, Trinidad and Mosley he won just as many rounds as he lost. Kudos Juan.

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            True

          • Barley mcgrew

            It was watching Quartey lose to DeLaHoya in Vegas that got me thinking how differently THAT one might have turned out if held in Accra, in front of tens of thousands of screaming Ghanaians – and with a Ghanaian referee and Ghanaian judges.

            All those fine Americans Quartey conceded home advantage too – Oscar, Wright, Vargas, Forrest, Carr. I wonder could THOSE champions have done the same and still been as successful.

            I think you may well be right Maxx. Kudos mate.
            .

          • maxx

            Indeed, he would surely have got the nod, if I could name one 147lb from the 90s who could defeat any other 147lb fighter from the 90s, I would have to select Quartey as I believe on his night he could beat anyone in that era, that is how good he was, that jab was all-time great, Verno Phillips stated “that it was harder than most guys right hands”, and his arms were Sam Langford like, terrific reach for a diminutive fighter, he had great work rate, bone crunching power, excellent chin which got softened up by another beast in Jose Luis Lopez and a tight peekaboo defence which ironically Winky Wright picked upon in the gym.Kudos pal

          • Barley mcgrew

            I agree, Maxx. A wonderful welterweight from a great welterweight era . And, as said – the only one who never really enjoyed home advantage. (even the said Road Warrior’ Wright fought entirely at home once he became a big name stateside).

            Great analysis of Quartey’s strengths, Maxx – difficult to think of any area where the Ghanaian had a real weakness (not THE fastest I guess). And what a fighter to compare Ike with – the ‘Boston Tar Baby’, Sam Langford himself. Ike does that comparison justice.

            Still considered only the third greatest West African – behind Azumah Nelson and Dick Tiger (Hogan ‘Kid ‘ Bassey was special too). Yet IMO Ike Quartey in reality just MIGHT have been the finest of the lot. Kudos pal.
            .

          • maxx

            Indeed not the fastest yet blessed with excellent timing and sense of distance, he out jabbed a prime, converted southpaw and authentically 5ft 10inch Oscar Dela Hoya who himself owned one of the finest jabs of his generation and indeed Qaurtey may have been the best of the lot if not the greatest.Kudos pal

          • Juan Manuel Valverde

            thanks for reminding me of this fight, gonna watch it now

          • JA

            And a weirdly deep chest if I recall. Can we also bring back James Page and “The Cowboy”?

      • DRE

        If Lopez was around today he would have thrashed any of today’s top welters.

      • Reggie Woodard

        Oscar’s post fight interview(the Quartey showdown) was candid,compelling stuff.

      • Giuseppe

        Pac v de la hoya at WW in their primes… who wins.

    • RStech

      Watch some fights of the great welters of the 1960s. Luis Rodriguez, Jose Napoles, Emile Griffith, Curtis Cokes…these guys were all-time greats fighting in the same era against one another. An often forgotten era of great fighters that would have dominated 147 today. Same can be said for the middleweights of that era as well.

      • Barley mcgrew

        Absolutely. RIP Benny Paret. Kudos.

    • 90s swagger

      Quartey was a beast.
      DLH was a superb welterweight. He would have beat today’s crop no problem.

    • maxx

      Both men were ARGUABLY the best welterweights of the entire 90s, considering all the vast talents we had in this division during that decade says it all about the quality of these two fantastic fighters.Kudos

    • ceylon mooney

      pacquiao was in that league for sure. hes still the best at 147.

  • Kid Dynamite

    well done Dougie for saying Cleverley’s got a degree in mathematics (and not math) 🙂

    • ceylon mooney

      hey me too!

  • Charlie U.

    Hey, who’s this Charlie from LA? I think Doug thought it was me. Lol. I still haven’t written in but I’m in the process of crafting the perfect first email to the mail bag. It’s just taking me years. Haha. In the meantime, I’ll enjoy reading the bag and interacting with everyone here on the message board.

    • Ерлан Табылдиев

      I also have instantly thought that guy is You. ))

    • maxx

      “I’ll enjoy reading the bag and interacting with everyone here on the message board” and long may that continue Charlie.Kudos pal

      • Charlie U.

        Hey same to you, Maxx. Kudos, dude.

        • maxx

          Cheers pal.Kudos

    • Write in!

  • RStech

    I don’t see Garcia as an easy day for Thurman. In fact, I would say they are evenly matched giving the edge in power and quickness to Thurman while giving the edge in counter-punching and defense to Garcia. Danny got some gifts against Herrera and Peterson, and usually enters the ring the bigger man. Thurman nearly lost his lunch from a Collazo body shot. I expect Garcia will target Thurman’s body while Thurman looks to pot-shot from the outside. I’m pulling for Thurman, hope he hands Garcia his first loss.

    When a fighter has to dry out more than ten pounds, that is a good indication they don’t belong at that weight class. They aren’t conditioned for it and drying out takes a lot out of a fighter, especially as they age. This is why you often see fighters fading in the late rounds if they’ve dried out 15+ pounds. It has a significant impact on your stamina. That is a big reason I’ve never really been impressed with Robert Garcia’s training methods.

  • william ellis

    On Haye-Bellew, I have to think that Haye’s reach advantage will come into play: Haye’s wingspan is 80″; Bellew’s is 74″. Bellew will have to get inside, and we know his defense is not all that great: witness the knockdown he suffered in round 1 against Makabu. If a good heavyweight like Haye has thrown that punch, it would have been lights out. I like Bellew: his story is a feel-good story, and we earned his title against a top challenger, but Haye needs to be completely faded for Bellew to win.

    • Park

      I can’t decide about this one. Gut instinct says it’s Haye v Maccarinelli all over again. Genuinely not sure what Haye has lost though, and got nothing to measure it by. Throw a long layoff, with a serious shoulder injury, and questionable motivation/desire into the mix, and that leaves me not so sure when I think about it. If Bellew does avoid Haye ‘s hard shots for the first few rounds (no mean feat) and is still there and putting on the pressure, it’s hard to say. Bellew can crack pretty well too, and there’s no questioning his drive at this stage in his career. Haye seems to have a similar demeanour to Carl Froch ahead of the first Groves fight – annoyed and indignant that Bellew has dared to call him out, so there’s a very real chance he’s not taking it as seriously as he should be.

      • william ellis

        Agree that it is hard to call – I incline to agree with your gut instinct, but I’d be happy to see Bellew win.

      • william ellis

        Agree that it is hard to call – I incline to agree with your gut instinct, but I’d be happy to see Bellew win.

      • philoe bedoe

        Be interesting to see Haye without Adam Booth in his corner.
        I know Shane McGuigan is a very good trainer, but but can he teach an old dog new tricks?………

  • philoe bedoe

    Great mailbag again Doug.
    Good points on different fighters losing weight.
    Can’t see Kell Brook taking the fight with Spence if him or his team weren’t sure of making weight.
    Kudos to Charlo for stepping up to 160, where all roads seem to lead to Golovkin.
    Maybe he see’s something in Golovkin that he can capatilise on……….

    • Park

      A lot of fighters think they see something they can capitalise on in Golovkin; until the bell rings, and all they see is a close up image of his fist, as it crashes repeatedly off their over-confident cranium

      • philoe bedoe

        It’s what makes them the fighters that they are.
        And what separates the pro’s from boys who never made it…………

      • philoe bedoe

        It’s what makes them the fighters that they are.
        And what separates the pro’s from boys who never made it…………

      • philoe bedoe

        It’s what makes them the fighters that they are.
        And what separates the pro’s from boys who never made it…………

      • Floridastorm

        Correct. We are now having to put up with the never ending pundits who keep saying that Brook exposed GGG and that there are a half dozen middleweights that could defeat GGG. Hmmmmmm. So, GGG allowed himself to be hit a few times before taking care of business. Remember “big drama show”. Funny how none of these experts said a thing when Stevens went 8 rounds with GGG or that Lemieux went 8 rounds with him both hitting GGG with big shots. These pundits should realize by now that GGG is one of the toughest and most skilled technicians in boxing today. IMO only Ward would give GGG a fight. I still think that GGG would KO Ward, though. Jacobs will be knocked out and possibly early. He showed he doesn’t have a chin in the Pirog fight and also in the Mora fight. A pure death scenario against GGG.

  • TMT NYC-DA REAL GHOSTBUSTERS

    Dougie! How could you forget about pretty boy Chris Algieri in your list of educated boxers?

    • DBone

      Because the question was about boxers not boxercise/spin class instructors.

  • philoe bedoe

    The closer Haye vs Bellew fight is getting the more I’m giving Bellew more of a chance of an upset.
    This will be Haye’s first competitive fight in five years.
    And although he will be dangerous early on, will his speed be that significant against Bellew, who is used to fighting fast boxers at cruiser and light heavy.
    Although he’s not the most naturally talented or fastest, he is capable of boxing to a game plan and brawling.
    And as the power to take Haye out and the heart to weather an early storm.
    Still a tall order though……….

    • PJC79

      Been thinking the same. Like you say no competitive fight in 5 years, you think his stamina will hold out if it goes late? Heard Bellew mention on Sky that Haye was close to gassing out against chisora a few years back, maybe Bellew’s planning on surviving early and taking it to Haye late on, easier said than done but it’ll be interesting.

      • philoe bedoe

        Your right, Haye does have stamina problems.
        I also think this as explosive ending written all over it.
        Haye is a very good finisher when he has a man hurt, and Bellew can be dangerous when he gets hurt……….

    • Barley mcgrew

      Still be massively surprised if Bellew makes this competitive. Haye is so much bigger and more explosive – and was once a far superior cruiserweight to boot. Different league for me – but has time caught up with Haye ? You might well be right. Kudos.
      .

      • philoe bedoe

        If 70% of the old Haye turns up he wins.
        But even the old one was vulnerable, had stamina issues and not the best chin.
        If he’s ring rusty Bellew could give him a big problem.
        But I still wouldn’t put money on it lol………

        • Barley mcgrew

          Agree on most of that, mate – just not sure Bellew is the man to expose such flaws in Haye. Then again, Carl Thompson famously exposed the young Haye – and a Haye rusty, older and slower quite possibly loses the explosive velocity in those KO punches that got so many out of there before said flaws were exposed.

          And maybe a Tony Bellew who fought at heavyweight as an amateur looks stronger at the weight ? All to find out. Looking forward to this one – side-show as a world-class attraction that it is. Kudos Philoe.
          .

          • philoe bedoe

            I agree ……,..,

  • JV316

    fyi supposedly showtime having free preview this weekend and streaming saturday fights for free on twitter

  • JonSwan

    1. Its me JonSwan!

    2. There is two kinds of IQ. Hi ring IQ or just high IQ. Ring IQ is better lemme splain. Floyd has a hi ring IQ he is 49-0 and has 1 billion $$$. Bobby Chez is a member of menza with no $$$ but he got 4 DUIs. Who would you brother be?

    3. If you dont want to box but you want to make $$$ then you need to go to school or sell cars. If you want to be a Schoolboy like Darrin Van Horn then sit in Zuma Nelsons class hes a professor. If you want to sell rides then go see Harold Brazier he will show you how its done. (But dont steal his cars you might get rested by Robin Blake hes a Pig!!!! !) So when you got dat $$$ and you want to buy a flat go see Calvin Brock he sells cribs. But if your a little short on cash then you gotta go see Dana Rosenblatt.

    4. Im not a hack Im JonSwan!

    • DBone

      I used to think your posts were dumb as shit Jon, but the last few weeks your ring IQ has gone waaaay up somehow. Good job!

      • JonSwan

        i never think Id say this bout Autosmell cuz I hate him so bad but he teached me so much. I have to give credit where its do!

        • Barley mcgrew

          Lol. What does Scott think about all this. Or did Autosmell kidnap him and feed him to your needy self JonSwan ?

          • JonSwan

            i hate that Scott guy I want to punch him out. Dont get me wrong hes probly super cool and awesome and super funny and probly good with the ladys too but I hate him!!!

    • Charlie U.

      This is a weird one. Auto Smell pretending to be Jon Swan but talking like he thinks Larry Connor talks? Like life, the Ring message board has a little bit of everything and everyone.

      • JonSwan

        oh Im not autosmell I hate that guy grrr! Hes pants!!!

  • RayK

    Anyone care to post a short list of must-see Jones Jr fights? I’ve watched a few but always hear of how he could’ve looked for tougher competition.

    • ShawnP

      Fights where his dominant skills were on display:
      Bryant Brannon
      Virgil Hill
      Vinny Paz
      Glenn Kelly
      Fights against tough guys who came to win:
      David Telesco
      Richard Grant
      Reggie Johnson
      His 2 biggest wins:
      John Ruiz
      James Toney
      Unlike Floyd, who had obvious matchups he avoided (Cotto, Margarito, etc.) Roy never had any huge opponent that he chose not to fight, he just could have picked opponents that would have been a little more competitive than some of the no-hopers he fought. Around the time Toney fought Jirov, I thought either would have been a great opponent for Roy, if he wanted to test the waters at Cruiser.

      • RStech

        Good list. His fight against Brannon really showcased his hand speed. That was the fight were he landed about a half dozen unanswered left hooks inside of about 3 seconds. He also blazed right through Merqui Sosa who was a tough, scrappy contender.

      • Left Hook

        Great list. I would put Montell Griffin 2 on there…mainly because I liked seeing Griffin kayoed. And shut up. Art Serwano makes for good viewing as well.

      • RayK

        Thanks for that!

      • mark elding

        I would have strongly favoured Jones, but he should have fought Benn in the summer of ’95. Nigel really wanted it.

  • RayK

    Anyone care to post a short list of must-see Jones Jr fights? I’ve watched a few but always hear of how he could’ve looked for tougher competition.

  • maxx

    Excellent mailbag as always Doug,,,,,I agree with you on Jones vs Tarver ll , Roy’s hands looked exceptionally fast yet he struggled with the southpaw style of Tarver, it reminded me of Roy’s struggle in the amateurs in a rematch with talented southpaw Frankie Liles who Roy beat by a whisker to ensure a place on the Olympic team, indeed in their first meeting Liles knocked Jones out cold.Kudos Doug

    • RStech

      There was also Lou Del Valle, a southpaw who was the first to knockdown Jones in the pros.

      • maxx

        Indeed he did, I met Lou in Sheffield whilst he was preparing Clinton Woods for Tarver, a good dude.Kudos

    • Word

  • prick from that one video

    You, A casual: enjoys glorified barroom brawling
    Me; an intellectual: prefers the graceful footwork of Rigo and the ring generalship of Ward

    • JonSwan

      Troll be gone!!!

  • Ewan Leaper

    Not sure if this is a Scottish thing but for about the 400th time I just saw a wannabe tough guy with a Bull Terrier calling his dog “Tyson”- Short, powerful, well capable of biting your ears off, very imaginative. Instead of mythical matchups, anybody got a suitable dog breed to name after a boxer, e.g:

    Chihuahua: Small, yappy and Mexican, likes to bark at bigger dogs but is ultimately glad his owner has him on a short leash- “Canelo”

    Jack Russell: Small, yappy and English, likes to bark at bigger dogs but is ultimately glad his owner has him on a short leash- “Junior”

    Siberian Husky: Not the biggest, quickest or most agile but compact and powerful, possesses endless stamina and indomitable will, will make it to the finish line in conditions that would see others iced- “Rocky”

    Rottweiler: Big, black and you wouldn’t want to be on the recieving end, it took a decade or two to realize it was much friendlier than first advertized and didn’t really deserve it’s reputation as a surly menace- “Big George”

    Whippet: Small and incredibly fast, doesn’t pack a particularly big punch and generally picks it’s battles wisely, too nimble to ever find out what it’s really made of- “Floyd”

    • Ewan Leaper

      Tobet: Immensely powerul Kasakhstani known as “wolf crusher”, highly unlikely to be fazed by a Chihuahua or Jack Russell- “Golovkin”

    • PJC79

      Brilliant! Love the Foreman and Floyd discriptions

    • ceylon mooney

      luca
      brasi already best name
      for rottweiler. not a fighter
      but u cant beat it.

      • Ewan Leaper

        Luca Brasi is an even better name for a goldfish.

        • ceylon mooney

          HAW HAW HAW! ah geez.

    • Stephen M

      Funny.

    • Dicky Chazz

      I bought a boxer from Kentucky, had to name it Ali

  • Sweet_Science_

    Great mailbag! Twas my first time writing in and it was included. I gotta say, of the fighters you mentioned Charlo could fight, I think Uncle AL could entice Johnson to showcase his skills on a PBC or Showtime broadcast (for some reason Showtime boxing isn’t shown in Canada anymore). He and Charlos style would mesh well and would probably be a smaller purse than say a Former Champion like Lee or Lemeiux.
    Thanks Dougie!

  • Giuseppe

    This was the greatest roy jones fight week of my life

  • Juan Manuel Valverde

    I favor Garcia over Thurman, I think its the opposite, Thurman is the overrated fighter here. I’ve never seen Garcia hurt, and even in the fight I thought he lost (Herrera), it was a closely contested fight. I think he clearly beat Peterson and could never see the robbery some were talking about. Garcia is the proven fighter, better quality of opposition, stronger more powerful and overall a better boxer, very underrated in my opinion. I like Thurman way better than the Garcia’s, I actually don’t like Danny too much and hate his dad. But again this is not a personality contest.

    Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather are super athletes, but they’re in no way similar. Their only similarity is that they both became high profile cherry pickers late in their careers.

    Marco Antonio Barrera came from a middle class family and if i’m not wrong I think he studied Law.

Get Our Newsletter.

Subscribe to our newsletter to get the latest news, events and deals in your inbox!