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Dougie’s Friday mailbag

Fighters Network
10
Jun
Photo: THE RING

Photo: THE RING

WAS ALI REALLY THE GREATEST?

Hey Doug,

I haven’t written in a while so I hope I make the cut. We keep hearing a lot about how great Muhammad Ali was since his passing. I was too young to ever witness any of his fights so much of what I learned about him was after he retired. And, while he undoubtedly was a great athlete, I also learned that he was a pretty great a__hole, too.

What makes him the greatest? Yes, he definitely deserves accolades for never ducking any of his contemporaries, especially when they were at their peaks. But, so did Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. and Oscar De La Hoya and many other great boxers. That label “the Greatest” was self-anointed much like Mayweather’s “The Best Ever” or Howard Stern’s “King of all Media” or LeBron’s “King James.” So he was the greatest simply because he said so?



He also gets a lot of praise for ducking the draft and opposing the war in Vietnam. As a combat veteran, I take issue with that. His country called on him and he refused to answer the call. Many other young men that didn’t have his celebrity did answer that call, right or wrong, and made the ultimate sacrifice for this great country of ours. Anyone else would have been labeled a coward. Instead, he is cheered.

And, while he was fighting the government and unable to earn an income, Joe Frazier took him in and financially supported him. Only to be stabbed in the back once Ali was allowed to fight again. Ali got the black community to turn on Frazier by calling him a sell out and an Uncle Tom and claiming that anyone that supported Frazier were also sell outs. Ali said he was simply trash talking to sell their fights but Frazier didn’t see it that way and never forgave him. He mocked Ali’s Parkinson’s until his own death. There is one documentary that everyone has failed to mention and that is HBO’s “Thrilla in Manila” in which Ali shows his true colors.

He may have been a great athlete in the ring but he was also a great a__hole out of the ring. He received much praise for going against the grain so I hope my email makes the Mailbag for going against the “Greatest” grain.

Thank you Doug and keep up the great work. – Hugo

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Hugo, as unpopular as they may be so soon after Ali’s passing. I’ve never made it a secret that Ali was a boyhood idol of mine, so I admit that it’s not easy for me to view him in an objective light, but I don’t understand why some people want to go over all of the ugly points of a famous individual’s life right after they die. I’m not giving you a hard time by asking this rhetorical question, and I’m not pointing the finger at you, either. Many others, people I know, friends of mine who have my cell number, sent me text messages like this one – “What writer is gonna be the first to write about the dark side of the champ? The KKK, the racial slurs toward Frazier, the lifeÔǪ” – mere hours after it was announced that Ali had died.

I have no idea what Ali’s connection to the KKK was, what “the life” means, or other facets of the champ’s “dark side,” and Frankly, it wasn’t something I cared to delve into upon learning of his passing. All I could think of when reading those texts and direct tweets was “Jesus Christ, can’t the man be dead for more than a day before we start taking dumps on his legacy!?”

Ali hasn’t been departed from this plane of existence for a full week and here you are with the burning need to remind the world that he was an a__hole and a coward (in your view). OK. Fine. That’s your prerogative. I just don’t get it. But what the hell, let’s talk about it.

Yes, Ali could be an a__hole. That was part of his confidence, part of his showmanship (which he worked on and mimicked from his favorite pro wrestlers at the time), part of his personality. It attracted attention and it was polarizing. It also got under the skin of his opponents and he knew this. He used it to help gain any psychological advantage he could. The disparaging nicknames were part of his psyche-game, and sometimes he hit below the belt with them as he obviously did with the “Gorilla” moniker he laid on Frazier prior to their rubber match. However, Ali’s mean streak (which sometimes reared its ugly head during his fights – most notably the extended beating of Ernie Terrell) was tempered by his caring nature. Just as the young adults of his generation (the 1960s) and the children of the 1970s could see the kindness, generosity and playfulness beyond the bravado and fierce competitiveness, I think many of his opponents understood that he wasn’t mean spirited. Sonny Liston, Terrell and certainly Frazier didn’t care for the nicknames and taunts, but Floyd Patterson, George Chuvalo, Jerry Quarry, Buster Mathis, Earnie Shavers, and others didn’t seem to mind at all. Some, I think, got a kick out of it.

What makes him the greatest? Ali can call himself “the greatest” because he was an all-time great heavyweight champ, a once-in-a-life-time entertainer, an influential political/social activist, an African-American role model/opinion leader, and a global brand (before terms like “global brand” existed). Does all that mean that he was the greatest boxer ever? Of course not. Even when he was in his athletic prime he conceded to his boyhood idol, Sugar Ray Robinson. Robinson, Willie Pep, Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, even Ezzard Charles (among others) are all arguably more accomplished boxers than Ali and deserve to rated higher in any all-time pound-for-pound rankings.

However, if Ali wanted to believe that he was the greatest heavyweight of all time, I don’t have a problem with that opinion, and neither do most boxing historians. I think Ali is No. 1, with Joe Louis and Jack Johnson right behind him. I don’t argue with anyone who views Louis or Johnson as the greatest heavyweight ever, but I go with Ali based on the quality of his opposition. He competed during the decades (the ’60s and ’70s) that the heavyweight division was at its deepest, and he took on all comers. Johnson fought the best of his era on his way to the title but drew the color line after he seized it (yes, sometimes black champs pulled that s__t). Louis has the longest reign and the most title defenses but there weren’t a lot of talented contenders during his era and many of the top names (future hall of famers) he faced were well past their primes (such as Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, James Braddock and John Henry Lewis – who was one of only two African-American contenders he faced during his reign, and Lewis was a half-blind light heavyweight). Even Max Schmeling, who handed Louis his first loss, was considered a bit long in the tooth at the time. But Ali

Photo: THE RING

Ali vs. Norton. The rematch. Photo: THE RING

faced more future hall of famers at their athletic peaks than any other former heavyweight champ that I can think of. Frazier, Norton and Foreman were at the height of their considerable physical powers when Ali (who may have been a bit faded due to his three-year exile) faced them. No heavyweight champ in history faced as many RING-rated contenders as Ali did. And what a great variety of styles and strengths he faced during his 21-year career! He fought the fastest (Floyd Patterson, Jimmy Ellis), the hardest hitters (Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers), the toughest (Oscar Bonavena, Chuvalo, Frazier, Quarry), the craftiest (Buster Mathis, Ellis, Jimmy Young), the most awkward (Bonavena, Terrell, Norton), the strongest (Foreman, Norton, Chuvalo), the baddest mother f__kers (Frazier, Bob Foster, Ron Lyle); boxers, punchers, boxer-punchers, volume punchers, pressure fighters, stick-and-movers, brawlers, tall and rangy, short and compact, you name the style and stature, Ali faced them and he fought them all around the planet, in the U.S., Canada, Britain, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Africa, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines and Bahamas. And in all of those fights, Ali was only stopped once, in his second to last fight, way past his prime (coming back from a retirement) against one of the top-five heavyweights of all time (Larry Holmes). He wasn’t just one of the greatest boxing talents ever, he was one of the toughest.

He also gets a lot of praise for ducking the draft and opposing the war in Vietnam. Correction, he gets a lot of praise for standing by his convictions despite the threat of losing his money, his career and his freedom. And most of this praise came after the fact. Plenty of people called him a coward (and a traitor and many other unflattering names) during his court case and exile from the sport.

As a combat veteran, I take issue with that. And you have a right to feel that way. Just know that there are many combat veterans who supported Ali’s right to oppose what he viewed as an unjust war.

And, while he was fighting the government and unable to earn an income, Joe Frazier took him in and financially supported him. Only to be stabbed in the back once Ali was allowed to fight again. I guess that was a d__k move but what did Frazier think Ali was going to do

Ali-Frazier. Fight One. Photo: THE RING

Ali-Frazier. Fight One. Photo: THE RING

once he got his license back? Kiss his ass? Come on, man! Ali was going to come for what he believed was rightfully his (the heavyweight title). Ali could have been a lot classier about it, he could have publicly acknowledged that Frazier helped him out during his time of need, but I figure his ego wouldn’t allow that. And part of his mental preparation for major challenges was to get into the heads of his respected opponents. We’ve already been over how he went about doing this.

Ali got the black community to turn on Frazier by calling him a sell out and an Uncle Tom and claiming that anyone that supported Frazier were also sell outs. Oh please. I know this is the stuff of books, films and documentaries, but Ali did not put the Jedi Mind F__k on Black America and force everyone to “hate on” Frazier. Black people CHOSE who they wanted to identify with. Ali was the African-American public figure who spoke out more on the things that were important to the black youth (and to American youth in general). Frazier wasn’t against racial equality or social justice, but he wasn’t the type of person to publicly speak about things that weren’t related to boxing. He was just a fighter, a great one at that, but the late ’60s and early ’70s was a time of political/social unrest and change and the youth and disenfranchised of the nation were going to side with any public figure that embodied their struggle. Ali did this. Frazier didn’t.

Ali said he was simply trash talking to sell their fights but Frazier didn’t see it that way and never forgave him. I can’t blame him.

He mocked Ali’s Parkinson’s until his own death. Not very classy, but that was his prerogative.

 

LOMA, PRO/AMATEUR, CRUISERWEIGHTS

Hey Doug,

I have written before but probably too lengthy, so I am going to keep it short this time.

What do you think about the upcoming Vasyl Lomachenko/Rocky Martinez fight? Lomachenko probably has one of the most impressing Amateur records of all time, yet he lost against Orlando Salido. Maybe you could tell me the difference between a solid amateur and a solid pro. It does not seem to be the same since guys like Audley Harrison and Odlanier Solis were amateur standouts but only mediocre pros.

What do you say about the possibility of a David Haye/Tony Bellew showdown? I would rate David Haye as high as Evander Holyfield as a CRUISERWEIGHT and my guess would be that Haye demolishes Bellew, since I see Bellew as one of these cruiserweights who got into the weight class to avoid the more competitive weight class, light heavyweight. But I have to admit, there are Killers swimming in the Cruiserweight pond and Bellew took one out like he was The Predator. Plus Bellew would be a step up for Haye, since the “Hayefaker” chose to face the bums of the heavyweight division.

Mythical Matchups:

David Haye vs. Evander Holyfield at cruiserweight

Muhammad Ali vs Jack Johnson
Felix Sturm vs. Bernard Hopkins at 160 (the Felix Sturm that BEAT Oscar de la Hoya)
Jack Dempsey vs. Wladimir Klitschko

Thanks – Leonhard

Thanks for sharing (and for keeping it relatively short).

Interesting mythical matchups:

David Haye vs. Evander Holyfield at cruiserweight – Holyfield by late TKO

Muhammad Ali vs Jack Johnson – Ali by decision

Felix Sturm vs. Bernard Hopkins at 160 (the Felix Sturm that BEAT Oscar de la Hoya) – Hopkins by decision or late TKO

Jack Dempsey vs. Wladimir Klitschko – Dempsey would have a good shot to clip the pre-2006 version of Wladdy in the early rounds, but I think Klitschko at his best ties up the Manassa Mauler, leans up on him to wear him down and takes him out in the middle to late rounds. But Dempsey would be dangerous for even the nullifying Emanuel Steward-trained version of Klitschko, especially if the fight was contested under 1910s/early ’20s rules that would allow the division’s first pressure fighter to get away with more rough stuff in close.

What do you think about the upcoming Vasyl Lomachenko/Rocky Martinez fight? I think it’s an interesting matchup (an ultra-talented boxer vs. a grizzled veteran boxer-puncher) and an impressive first bout at 130 pound for Lomachenko.

Lomachenko probably has one of the most impressing Amateur records of all time, yet he lost against Orlando Salido. That came as no surprise to me, but I was still impressed with how Lomachenko dealt with the relentless pressure, volume punching and roughhouse tactics from the unfairly heavy Salido.

Maybe you could tell me the difference between a solid amateur and a solid pro. Sure. A solid amateur has lots of amateur bouts against quality amateur opposition. A solid pro has lots of professional bouts against quality opposition. Lomachenko was an elite amateur. He is a two-time Olympic and World Amateur champ who had nearly 400 bouts and only lost once (to a fellow elite amateur boxer, Albert Selimov, that he defeated in a return bouts). Salido is a world-class pro. He’s been a top-10 contender for 15 years, during which time he’s held two major featherweight titles, one interim 130-pound belt and has engaged in 15 total major world title bouts. To date, “Siri” has 61 pro bouts. When Lomachenko faced Salido, he only had one pro bout (seven if you count the six “semi-pro” bouts he had with the World Series of Boxing) when he challenged Salido, who had 57 pro bouts at the time. Despite his special talent and extensive amateur experience, Lomachenko was still comparatively green as a pro. He had never fought past five rounds against an opponent with a gross weight advantage that was willing to hit him anywhere on his body. But hey, even though he took an “L,” that night, those 12 rounds made Loma a true pro in my opinion. That brutal experience is one of the reasons I favored him over Gary Russell Jr. three months later.

What do you say about the possibility of a David Haye/Tony Bellew showdown? I don’t think it’s possible unless Bellew is willing to step up to heavyweight. I think Haye would have to cut off an arm to make 200 pounds.

I would rate David Haye as high as Evander Holyfield as a CRUISERWEIGHT and my guess would be that Haye demolishes Bellew, since I see Bellew as one of these cruiserweights who got into the weight class to avoid the more competitive weight class, light heavyweight. I don’t think Haye is anywhere near Holyfield as a cruiserweight (which isn’t a diss to the UK fighter, I think the Real Deal is the best cruiser ever) but I agree that he would probably KO Bellew. I don’t believe Bellew moved to cruiserweight to avoid the top light heavyweights. I think he legitimately outgrew the 175-pound division. He competed in the 201-pound (91 kg) division as an amateur and was likely draining himself to make light heavyweight.

 

SMOKIN’ JOE FRAZIER

Sup Doug;

All of the talk, articles & videos of Ali is surprising & warranted. The man accomplished great feats & was a noble humanitarian. I can’t help but feel Joe Frazier is being slighted, again. When Smokin Joe passed away he didn’t receive a tenth of this coverage. Ali was a great man, not arguing that. He wasn’t a saint tho. Had several kids w/ several different women. Taunted Joe relentlessly; called him an Uncle Tom, stupid, gorilla, he was “less” black than Ali. Even tho Ali grew up in a middle class neighborhood while Joe was the son of a sharecropper in South Carolina! Joe was a great man too, that shouldn’t be ignored or forgotten. Keep things in perspective, I’ll leave it at that. All the best Doug. – Gerry K., League City

Frazier did not receive the worldwide attention when he died as Ali is currently receiving but Smokin’ Joe didn’t have the global presence that his arch rival had. (However, Frazier’s passing was heavily covered by the U.S. sports media.)

Keep this in mind, Ali turned pro more than four and half years before Frazier did; he beat Sonny Liston for the heavyweight title before Joe turned pro. Ali had a longer pro career and was far more active than Frazier, engaging in 24 more bouts than the Philly warrior. Ali was Fighter of the Year more often the Frazier and he was in more Fight-of-the-Year bouts (although two of his six were against Joe).

Ali fought outside of the U.S. 15 times; Frazier left the States four times. His religious conversion (from Christianity to Islam) instantly connected him to people in other parts of the globe (Africa, the Middle East, Asia). His stance on the Vietnam war turned heads around the world. And he remained involved in global peace efforts long after he retired.

On top of all of this, Ali just happened to possess the most entertaining and polarizing personality the sports world had

Frazier-Ali I. Photo: THE RING

Frazier-Ali I. Photo: THE RING

seen since Jack Johnson. Frazier did his talking and entertaining in the ring. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Frazier is an all-time great (which is saying something for a fighter who only had 37 pro bouts), but is it really a surprise that Ali’s death has impacted more people and is getting more media attention? And I know that Ali wasn’t a “saint” but do you really feel that it’s somehow “unfair” that Ali’s passing is a bigger deal to the general population (people who aren’t hardcore boxing fans) than Frazier’s death?

 

BLOOD-AND-GUTS BRAWLBAG

Wazzup Doug-E,

Ready for some more Blood N Guts.

  1. Still feeling the heat from the Salido-Vargas scorcher. Now that was the kind of boxing we all love ta see. Two real Mexican warriors who don’t f*** around. I had Salido pounding out a very narrow decision due to his late-round stretch-drive and all that facial damage he scored with both his fists and his cement-block of a head. Much like fellow hellraiser Ruslan Provodnikov, Salido would have loved it in the bare-knuckle era. The difference? Salido’s a craftier guy in there than Provo could ever be. So how well do you think Salido would have done against the 2006-08 junior-lightweight version of Manny Pacquiao. Would he have succeeded into dragging the Pac into 12 rounds of fistic hell or would Pac’s speed and power have been too much for even him?
  1. Vargas certainly scored more than his share of powershots. But he needs time to mend his damaged mug after those wars with Muira and Salido. How do you think he would have done against the 1997 junior-lightweight version of Arturo Gatti. All I know is that we’ll get a lot of sweat, punches and blood rocketing in all directions.
  1. I stated that V. Lomachenko will beat Roman Martinez by either clear-cut UD or TKO. Now that we’re almost there I gotta realize that we cant’ rule out The Rock. We can never overlook Salido so how can we overlook a guy who went 24 brutal rounds with the Mexican hardass. Sure Salido should have won that rematch due to his insane workrate but Martinez still rocked him good a few times. I’m still going with Loma and if I’m right something tells me that we’re more likely to get Loma-Salido 2 later this year as apposed to Salido-Vargas 2.
  1. Next prediction: Provo pounds out Johny-Boy Molina by either UD or KO. Actually it will have to be a KO. If it goes the full 12 Provo could get screwed again by the judges. Anyhow I just see Provo as the stronger puncher in this one. Not to mention the guy with the tougher chin.
  1. One more myth-match for our good bald buddy Salido. Remember Jesus Chavez? That other human buzzsaw from the 2000s. Lets square them off. Who wins this brutal fight?
  1. One final tribute for Ali. He was a true blood n guts warrior who showed he had all the substance needed to back up the flashiness he was noted for. Certainly more than I can say for some of those cheap-ass imitators that came later. Ali’s wars with Frazier especially the Manila war were the most all-out Mexican style wars we’ll probably ever get among the big guys. God bless both of those great fighters. On a whole Ali was always stood strong against bullies whether it was big bad George Foreman or Uncle Sam himself. RIP Champ.

Later Bro! – Captain Ron

Nice to hear from ya, Cap. I’m glad the Vargas-Salido bash-a-thon put you in the summer spirit. Is there any matchup on the schedule that can equal or better it? We’ll see. Maybe Provo-Molina will be fun while it lasts. I’m little nervous for Johnny.

  1. Still feeling the heat from the Salido-Vargas scorcher. Now that was the kind of boxing we all love ta see. Two real Mexican warriors who don’t f*** around. Maybe Vargas and Salido were the Mexicans Canelo was talking about when the subject of GGG came up during his post-Khan interview.

Much like fellow hellraiser Ruslan Provodnikov, Salido would have loved it in the bare-knuckle era. Agreed.

The difference? Salido’s a craftier guy in there than Provo could ever be. Also agreed.

So how well do you think Salido would have done against the 2006-08 junior-lightweight version of Manny Pacquiao. I think Salido would have given Pac a fight but would have suffered several knockdown en route to a late TKO.

  1. Vargas certainly scored more than his share of powershots. I thought he buzzed Salido more often than the veteran rocked him.

But he needs time to mend his damaged mug after those wars with Muira and Salido. Agreed.

How do you think he would have done against the 1997 junior-lightweight version of Arturo Gatti. All I know is that we’ll get a lot of sweat, punches and blood rocketing in all directions. Both men would look like freakin’ gargoyles by the fifth round, but I think Gatti was too athletic, strong and powerful for Vargas to last the distance with. Gatti by late TKO.

  1. I stated that V. Lomachenko will beat Roman Martinez by either clear-cut UD or TKO. Now that we’re almost there I gotta realize that we can’t rule out The Rock. We can never overlook Salido so how can we overlook a guy who went 24 brutal rounds with the Mexican hardass? Good point. Martinez is a versatile boxer-puncher who knows how to survive, steal rounds and press when necessary. And I don’t think Loma hits as hard as Mikey Garcia, so maybe we’ve got a competitive fight tomorrow night. I certainly hope so.

I’m still going with Loma and if I’m right something tells me that we’re more likely to get Loma-Salido 2 later this year as opposed to Salido-Vargas 2. I’m OK with that. And unless you’re Puerto Rican, you gotta ride with Loma tomorrow night.

  1. Next prediction: Provo pounds out Johny-Boy Molina by either UD or KO. Gee, Cap, that pick doesn’t exactly make you Nostra-f__kin’-damus.

Actually it will have to be a KO. If it goes the full 12 Provo could get screwed again by the judges. I’ll be shocked if it goes the distance. I won’t be shocked if Provo winds up getting KO’d. Don’t get me wrong, I think the Russian will score the stoppage, but I think Molina hits hard enough to hurt Siberian Rocky. Provo’s pressure-fighting style might play right into Molina’s heavy hands.

Anyhow I just see Provo as the stronger puncher in this one. Not to mention the guy with the tougher chin. The better chin, definitely. Stronger puncher? I’m not so sure.

  1. One more myth-match for our good bald buddy Salido. Remember Jesus Chavez? That other human buzzsaw from the 2000s. Lets square them off. Who wins this brutal fight? I think Chavez wins a close decision. He was just as tough, could match Siri’s high-volume punch output, but he was a more versatile, polished boxer with better technique. That fight would’ve crushed all CompuBox records.
  1. One final tribute for Ali. He was a true blood n guts warrior who showed he had all the substance needed to back up the flashiness he was noted for. Ali’s wars with Frazier especially the Manila war were the most all-out Mexican style wars we’ll probably ever get among the big guys. God bless both of those great fighters. On a whole Ali always stood strong against bullies whether it was big bad George Foreman or Uncle Sam himself. RIP Champ. Amen to that.

 

MEXICAN STYLE

After watching and re-watching last Saturday’s match between Vargas and Salido, it got me thinking of my 1st “Mexican Style” fight I remember. It just so happens to be at 130lbs too. Julio Chavez Sr vs Mario “Azabache” Martinez. Now that was vintage “Mexican Style.” I would like to know your thoughts on that particular fight. If my memory serves me right, I think Hector Camacho vacated his belt in order to avoid them.

Some mythical match-ups:

De La Hoya vs Cotto 140 or 47

Nicholas Walters vs Erik Morales 140

De La Hoya vs Danny Garcia 140 or 147

(PS you’re doing a hell of a job) – Ozzie

Thanks Ozzie.

Chavez vs. Martinez was JCC’s first world title bout and his first memorable ring war. There would be many more, but if I’m not mistaken, he was the underdog in this 1984 matchup (despite being 43-0). Martinez (33-1-2) was viewed as the more battle tested of the two Mexican junior lightweights.

Anyway, you’re correct. It’s a terrific fight. Have you ever seen Martinez’s two title fights with Azumah Nelson? If you haven’t, you should. Mexican Style is the s__t, but Mexican-African Style ain’t bad, either.

Regarding Camacho vacating the WBC 130-pound title, I don’t think he was ducking Chavez or Martinez. I think Camacho truly was “Macho” prior to getting caught by Edwin Rosario in ’86. I think he vacated the junior lightweight belt because he had legit problems making weight (among other problems, “sniff, sniff,” if you catch my drift). The Puerto Rican super-talent still looked amazing lifting the WBC lightweight title from another Mexican warrior, Jose Luis Ramirez (who was no slouch, my man) almost a year after Chavez won the 130-pound strap.

Your mythical match-ups:

De La Hoya vs Cotto 140 or 147 – The Golden Boy by late TKO at 140 and by close/controversial decision at 147

Nicholas Walters vs Erik Morales 140 – El Terrible by decision

De La Hoya vs Danny Garcia 140 or 147 – DLH by mid-to-late TKO at 140 and by late TKO at 147

 

 

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